Josh Cantwell: So, hey, guys, welcome back to Accelerated Investor. Hey, this is Josh, your host. And today, we’re going to be talking about betting on yourself. I have a guest today. His name is Will Matheson. He is the co-founder and managing partner of Matheson Capital, along with his twin brother.

And at the end of 2017, Will and his twin brother were just a few months away from graduating from Columbia University’s master’s in real estate development program, where they ultimately face the choice, just like a lot of us do, go the traditional corporate route or start their own investment company. And so, despite having no track record, no ownership experience, very little equity, and student loan debt, they opted in to bet on themselves and start their own company.

Since 2018, they’ve acquired over $100 million worth of real estate while still in their 20s. They’ve completed over a dozen multifamily and student housing acquisitions. They’ve gone full cycle on six projects, producing an over 40% internal rate of return for those investors. Their long-term goal is to own over a billion dollars’ worth of real estate by 2027. And so, they’ve got about five years to do that.

So, we’re going to talk today with Will about the state of the market, how he’s underwriting deals differently, how he picks and chooses markets. We’re also going to talk to Will about what things he believes you should not do when you start a business. And I’ll give you some insight. Number one, do not over-allocate capital to one deal. Number two, do not always take the long-term time frame. Number three, do not be inflexible, which means do not get long-term loans that have high prepayment penalties. Number four, do not be passive. And number five, do not do ground-up development.

And so, you’ll hear about that and many, many other things, including why you should always start small and build a track record. You’re going to love this interview on Accelerated Investor with Will Matheson from Matheson Capital. Here we go.

[INTERVIEW]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey, Will, welcome to Accelerated Investor. Excited to have you on the show. Thanks for carving out a few minutes.

Will Matheson: No, thank you for having me.

Josh Cantwell: Awesome. So, Will, let’s jump in and talk about as we kind of introduce you to our audience and they get to know you a little bit better. Tell us a little bit about what you’re working on right now, like this week, next week, passion projects, deal flow. What are you working on that you’re excited about?

Will Matheson: So, we’re working on one project currently in North Carolina Triad, loan assumption with 3.32% fixed, that with– it’ll have three and a half years of interest only left after we close. And I think the current debt service coverage ratio is about a 2.4%. So, yeah, hard to find cash flow like that these days. Really hard to find anything that cash flows like that since really 2019, pre-COVID. So, that’s one project we’re actively working on. We’re negotiating another contract on a student housing asset as well. So, that’s what we’re working on.

Josh Cantwell: Gotcha. And just so our audience kind of understand from your perspective in the market, you guys really got going buying assets pre-COVID, 2017, 2018, 2019, have built $100 million portfolio in the last five years or so. But in your words, from your perspective, how has the market changed in the last year?

Will Matheson: Oh, goodness. It would be harder to say how it stayed the same. Obviously, the way interest rates are acting, that has completely changed. I mean, we closed on some stuff at 4.7% fixed in September, October, which we’re very fortunate to do. You can’t even get SOFR at that rate anymore. A lot of value-add is just seemingly done. There’s a flight-to-quality.

Just speaking from a recent example here in the Southeast, there was an asset in Charleston that I believe had 20 bids and I’ve seen other A property built in the last 15 years and other assets, some 70s products just hanging on the vine, brokers calling you and saying, “Hey, can you offer? Can you offer? Can you offer?” So, we’re seeing a flight-to-quality. We’re seeing a tightness in the lending markets, stuff everybody here is familiar with, but it’s across the spectrum.

Josh Cantwell: And do you feel like I do that that flight-to-quality is because bridge lending is almost obsolete right now? Is it because investors are using agency debt, long-term financing, loan assumptions, and that obviously lends itself to more of an A-class or a B-plus-class product?

Will Matheson: I think it has to do with a few things. So, for one, yes, the agency financing is a little bit easier, I would say, on your Class As and your Class Bs. But I think one factor that’s coming into play is that a lot of Class C owners, the people who are using the bridge debt that’s no longer available, are understandably trying to ride this thing out. The markets are already pricing in interest rate reductions in the back half of this year, the start of next year. So, I just don’t think you’re going to see a lot of C-class stuff hitting the market because the sellers can’t hit their price right now. They’re going to hold on.

But also, on the other side, on the buyer side, you can’t necessarily sell that fifth value-add program in the last 10 years. No more easy value-add. Those tenants are some of the most rent burdened in the country. The Class A renters have a much lower degree of being rent burdened. So, I think, on the seller side, no one wants to sell. And on the buyer side, people are a lot more skeptical than they used to be.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, it seems like 1980s and newer is still very much attractive and people are looking for that B-class and A-class type stuff, stuff that’s 1980s and previous that’s got the old bones, and typically, C-class type of residence definitely slowed down. We had a deal that we were looking at which we were awarded back in October, like the week, the day that the final big interest rate hike came and the 10-year Treasury went to almost 4.4% and basically said, “Hey, not only do we not want this asset, but at this price, but we don’t really want it at any price. Let’s just wait and see what happens.” And now, brokers are talking about that deal off market, a million and a half to two million below where we were at in October, be specifically for the reasons, Will, that you just mentioned. And I don’t even know if we wanted at that price, that we’re taking a look at.

Will Matheson: Yeah, I mean you do see some assets where you’ll see the sale price be 20%, 15% lower than it was a year ago if it was an expired listing back then. I’ve yet to see anything sell for less than it was bought for last time. So, it’s not the Great Recession or anything like that but just the velocity. The mark-to-market values are down, but I haven’t seen the actual values drop below where they were sold last time.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. Agreed. Will, what’s your take on the number of loans that are coming due? Mortgage Bankers Association says there’s $900 billion over a trillion dollars’ worth of commercial real estate loans that are going to come due in the next two years. A lot of analysts are talking about at least 10% or 20% of that. Somewhere between $100 billion and $200 billion will end up becoming distressed to some degree. But banks don’t really want to foreclose on that stuff, right? They’re just going to kind of manage it through. What’s your take on what actually happens over the next two years as so much of that bridge debt comes due, so much of those loans term out, and people have to refi or sell?

Will Matheson: I mean, my thoughts on that essentially boil down to there’s so many people sitting around waiting for the dry powder everybody talks about. I don’t think you’re going to see a complete collapse in prices. You might see some equity get wiped out, but again, for a lot of these assets, you see people that are essentially bidding. I mean, you’ll get 20 bids on some properties. So, I don’t see a lot of assets really getting hit too badly.

I will say there’s a big difference in that two-year window between having your debt come due in the next six months and having your debt come due in 18 to 24 months. If you’re, I mean, just following the forward curve, everyone expects rates to be lower at that point. Maybe financing is going to open up a little bit. So, I’m grateful we don’t have a loan coming due for two years. That’s our nearest loan. We sold most of our portfolio from October 2021 to March 2022. I would be really worried if I have a loan coming due through the end of this year. But beyond that, I think it could be a very different market.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, the forward curve. I mean, something’s got to give, right? Are we going to be in a war with China that makes the rates lower, right? If we default on the dollar or there’s some sort of issue with banking, all these various larger issues all make that forward curve even lower. I mean, if the fact that the Fed funds rate could be back at 1%, 1.5%, and you could be seeing debt at 4% again, some guys are betting on that or even assuming that that may happen. And also, obviously, the forward curve just is lower generally next year and everyone’s expecting cheaper financing in 2024.

So, yeah, we thought that this rate increase would happen for maybe two years and then stay flat and then drop. And it seems like more, hey, the Fed’s already done their damage for the last year and things are going to kind of stay flat, and then eventually drop down a lot sooner than most people thought. Do you think that’s mostly because the banking collapses? You think that the Federal Reserve kind of tested the market, saw some of the collapses, and now they’re thinking, hey, we can’t raise rates? Or is it just the fact that inflation is starting to come down?

Will Matheson: Well, I don’t think there’s any one answer to that. Obviously, the scare with Silicon Valley Bank, I think, is a factor, the fact that we’re seeing inflation slow down to only 5%. Who would have thought we’d be sharing that two years ago? But I think that’s a factor.

There was another report that came out earlier this month talking about how, because of our interest rate increases, the cost of servicing our debt had gone up, I think, 41% in the first six months of the fiscal year. I can never remember when the government’s fiscal year starts and stops. But a point I make to people is obviously rates are higher now, but the last time rates were consistently in this level. We were looking at a national debt, well, what is? 2007, the national debt is $10 trillion, whereas now, the national debt is $31, $32 trillion. And if we keep our rates higher, we have to pay that.

So, I think the banking system is scaring people. I think, as you mentioned with Silicon Valley Bank, just the fiscal situation of the government is going to put downward pressure on those. I think the downward pressure of inflation is going to do that. And I mean, to a certain extent, this is something JP Conklin always mentions, the Fed can talk a really tough game about the need to break inflation and raise interest rates and etc., etc., etc., but it’s very different when you know your next set of hikes are going to lead to– I mean, they’re projecting what? 4.5% unemployment by the end of the year, whatever, I think that calculates out to 167,000 lost jobs per month.

It’s very different when the jobs aren’t going down, but as soon as people start losing their jobs, I think there is probably a psychological effect on the Fed no matter how much you try to insulate yourself, you’re only human. No one wants to kick people out of their jobs.

Josh Cantwell: Right. Yeah. And all those reasons. There’s probably five reasons that we just mentioned in and out of those, including the government not being able to support the costs of the debt war, people losing jobs, inflation coming down. All those reasons put the forward curve where interest rates are much lower at the end of this year and next year, which again, six months ago, you wouldn’t have thought that. You would have thought it would been two years out until the forward curve was coming down. It’s fantastic stuff.

Well, how has all that changed your investment strategy? Thinking that rates might come down, cap rates might stay elevated, although they haven’t really gone up that much, but that the fact that cap rates might be back down in two years, how does this all change your investment strategy now, your philosophy about what you’re buying, the areas that you’re buying, and how you’re underwriting?

Will Matheson: So, as I said earlier, we’re definitely a part of the flight-to-quality. The C space, the 70s product really scares me, especially if you’re in a potential recessionary environment, which a lot of people are forecasting we will be in by the end of this year. So, we do want to look for assets, 90s or newer, so to speak. So, we’re definitely looking in that range. It is a little funny. It breaks every real estate fundamental to underwrite an exit cap lower than your entry cap. So, we do not do that. We refuse to do that.

But the one big thing, and this is something we’ve always done, but it’s especially true now. If you’re just modeling a deal based on, hey, this is what the latest agency term sheet is, a lot of times you’ll end up with a better IRR just by using the 10-year money because the 10-year is lower than the 5-year, the rate is better, the proceeds are higher, etc., etc. You might end up with a better IRR on paper with that 10-year money. But realistically, we all know you shouldn’t lock in for 10 years or we all think you shouldn’t lock in for 10 years, you shouldn’t say no.

So, I want flexibility to get in and out of the loan in three years. I had a conversation with one investment group recently saying, hey, look, we know the 10-year looks better on paper, but we all know we should use the 5-year. And there are eight assumptions that are going to happen three years in the future on this refinance. And we don’t know what all of those are. I could make them up. I could put them on paper. But we all know that we want to be able to do something, sell or refi in three years without having a seven-year yield maintenance prepay. So, to summarize, flight-to-quality, but we still, I don’t want bridge loans, but I want flexibility in my ability to get out of my loans.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. So, you guys are looking at bank loans at all? Are you looking at recourse bank loans? That’s kind of the middle ground. I mean, you get more flexibility in the prepayment penalty. You can still fix out a loan for five to seven years and you can maybe get some CapEx dollars, but the tradeoff is recourse. So, thoughts on that as an option?

Will Matheson: Most of the banks we work with are out of the market. And to be clear, I’m a huge proponent of bank loans. I think, six of the last eight acquisitions we’ve done have been with bank debt. As far as I’m aware, most of them are out of the market, though I did have a phone call recently where I did hear about one bank that could still be sub 6 on the rate, see if that comes to fruition. But really, at this point, it’s assumption loans or agency debt.

And if a deal doesn’t work with agency debt, I’m not sure you want to be buying it. I had a broker I work with, like coffee over at Acadia. He summarized it best when he said for the first time since 2019, agency underwriting standards are back. It’s not this bridge loan. It’s like, you’ve got to hit this DSCR, you’ve got to hit this cash-on-cash, you’ve got to hit all of these criteria. And it seems crazy to say, but that all went away for 2020 through 2022. It’s just getting back to the fundamentals.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, no, I agree with that and I’m actually happy to see it. I think some of the cowboys that have entered the space are out, going to be out for a while, and allows real operators that really know what they’re doing to buy the asset, manage it the right way, and see real returns for investors. A rising market bails out everybody, even the cowboys who don’t know what they’re doing. So, I’m appreciative of that, and hopefully back to a more normalized market, which is exciting.

Will Matheson: What does Warren Buffett say, receding tide shows who is swimming naked?

Josh Cantwell: Yeah.

Will Matheson: Yeah, so.

Josh Cantwell: I used to like to swim naked when I was in high school and college.

Will Matheson: No comment.

Josh Cantwell: Not anymore. Well, let’s talk about your transition into the space. You graduated from Columbia. You could have gone to work in a big corporate outfit. You could have done a lot of different things, decided to bet on yourself, and built a $100 million portfolio of acquisitions that you’ve done. You’ve gone full cycle on a number of them. Tell us about the decision about betting on yourself, getting out of school, still a very young age, with not a lot of credibility, not a lot of track record, but saying, “Look, man, I would rather own and operate my own stuff and make my own decisions than go work for a company that’s basically doing the same thing.” Tell us about that decision. What kind of heartburn did it create for you? And tell us about where you’re at today and how you look back upon that decision.

Will Matheson: Yeah. So, I mean, the nexus of– or the real, the base of the decision was what do you do when you go to work for X, Y, or Z, big company? You go in there, you focus on one thing, and you think you’re going to climb the corporate ladder for 10, 15, 20 years, and then you’re going to go out, start your own company, and start buying institutional level assets. And my thought, along with my twin brother, who’s the co-founder of the company with me, and we said, “Look, I’d rather go out on my own, start with the smallest thing possible.” And our first acquisitions were, it was a duplex. And then it was six units and six units and 15 units. I mean, we started very small properties.

We’re going to learn a lot. We’re going to make some mistakes. I have given some guest lectures at my former program talking about everything not to do when you start out. But we made some mistakes, nothing too bad. Haven’t lost anybody any money. Always has been delivering that. Average IRR has been 40% unless you think I’m completely out of my depth on this one, but yeah, we just thought if we start now, we start buying now, we’ll learn a lot, we’ll learn every aspect of the business, and instead of going out on our own 15, 20 years from now, we’ll be buying institutional level assets in five years.

And I’m pretty pleased with where we are now, as far as looking back. Obviously, it was tough. I got married a year before. I got married in 2017. We just started to really go out on our own in 2018. So, that was understandably a bit stressful for my wife not seeing the money come in every two weeks. But we’ve made it through that, and it’s still stressful sometimes, but not as.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. Now, what were some of the things you learned? You mentioned that you gave a talk at your former program about some things to do and not to do. What are some of those takeaways that you would share with them? Would you share those with our audience?

Will Matheson: I mean, so my big thing that I cannot emphasize enough is you should always start with smaller properties. If you go into a market and you say, “I’m going to start buying $20 million or $25 million properties,” guess what? You’re competing with everybody else who already owns those properties, who the broker already has a relationship with. That’s fighting an uphill battle. So, you’re pretty much in a position where the only way you win is by overpaying, whereas if you start small, you’re in less competition, you’re dealing with the most inefficient place of the market, probably where capital improvements will make the best because, I mean, let’s face it, one professionally managed 200-unit property is not all that different. It’s an efficient market, more or less. You’re not going to find the huge gems necessarily in there. Or if you are, it’s going to get beat up.

But if you’re looking in the smaller, the sub $10 million space, even the sub $5 million space, you don’t have to raise as much equity. The debt might be easier to get. And again, you’re dealing with less competition as to– so I can’t emphasize enough, start small, build a track record. We were very adamant about buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, sell so we could build the track record, show full cycle deals as to what not to do.

Oh, boy, I always tell people, I have five things I say you shouldn’t do. Don’t over-allocate your capital into one deal. You’re not here to buy one property, you’re here to build a portfolio. Don’t commit to a long time frame, it’s number two, especially when you’re starting out, a $3 million deal might be a big acquisition for you in your second year, but by your fourth year, you’ll be sitting there thinking, why am I still holding on to this property and buying $12 million deals? It takes up just as much time.

Don’t be inflexible, which is don’t get yield maintenance debt. It kind of goes hand in hand with the long time frame. You want to be able to get in and out of your deals, realize those returns, recycle the capital, and move on to the next bigger one. Don’t be passive. And when I say that, I mean no one cares about your property as much as you. When you’re starting out, it’s kind of easy to get a bit bullied by contractors, property managers. But this is your property, these are your babies. You need to be on top of them. You need to– this may be arrogant, but no one cares about it more than you. So, you need to hold them to a standard. And my last one, possibly the most controversial, do not do ground-up development. It takes a long time. It’s incredibly risky. So, I’d be wary of that one.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, I love it. So, do not over-allocate into one deal. Do not have a long-term time frame. And I think what Will is doing is by structuring deals where, it which goes along with number three, don’t be inflexible. So, if you just buy for the 10 years and you take this long-term time frame, you say, “Okay, well then I can get away with yield maintenance and a big prepayment penalty on my loan,” then you’re stuck in that deal because you can’t really sell it at the right time, at the right price.

Number four, I think, is huge, right? You can’t be passive. I talk often with this audience about secret shopping your deals, secret shopping, negotiating with your contractors, negotiating with your property managers because they’re all in business to make money, too. So, you’ve got to squeeze their profit margin down while you still allow them some profit so they can do a good job. And no matter what anybody tells you over the phone, it’s never going to be 100% the truth, well, not from a property manager, not from a contractor.

I secret shop one of my buildings. We own a boutique luxury apartment complex downtown Cleveland. And contractor told my VP of construction on Monday that a punch list on these six units were done. So, I thought I’d just go check it out, go see if it was. And sure, sh*t, it wasn’t. So, my VP of construction lost his mind because now, he looks like he’s got egg on his face. And obviously, the contractor now worked almost 24 straight hours to make sure it was done by the end of the day today. So, you got to secret shop your stuff. Nobody’s going to care more than you. I love that one.

And ground-up development, yes. I mean, it’s hard to do ground-up development unless you’re a super mature business with a lot of flexibility from investors. And a lot of guys, when deal flow gets tight, they start to look at ground up, which is like, hey, if you’re buying tight deals and they’re getting bid up, you’re only getting more risky by doing ground-up development. Like, that’s the end of the spectrum. So, let’s not go there. Just wait until the market changes. That would be my advice. Well, what would you think on that?

Will Matheson: Well, I was going to say, I mean, one thing that’s kind of worth adding to that is if you’re going in, you’re doing it full time, you’re getting the full experience of it, all of those reasons also, they have an economic reason for both you and your investors, which is one, if you’re only getting paid acquisition fees and promote, because let’s face it, a $3 million property, it doesn’t produce asset management fees, really. You go buy, sell, buy, sell it. Obviously, you’re providing for yourself and your family and all of that, but you’re also providing something that’s quite frankly, a lot more interesting to investors. And you need to grow your investor base as quickly as possible because what’s more exciting telling an investor here is these three deals I’ve delivered at 40% IRR to my LPs or I’ve made my quarterly distribution in the last 12 quarters.

One of them jumps off the page a little more, not that there’s anything wrong with the cash flow, but you’re in growth mode. You’ve got to keep moving, keep adding to your investor base. And I mean, happy investors are ones who’ve gotten their profit taking the risk off the table. And now, they can dive into the next one with you.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. And I think there’s a lot to be said for that strategy. And even if you’re going to get in, get out, buy and sell, buy and sell, do some value-add improvements and sell, holding one or two or five, depending on the size of your portfolio doesn’t hurt. But volume velocity of capital is what Will is talking about. It’s really, really important.

And when people go full cycle, especially on a sale where they get a big pop of proceeds, the ability to use them for referrals and more investors is incredibly high versus, hey, we refi and we’re paying on a distribution. That’s also good. It’s really good. We love those. We got a bunch of those in our portfolio, but the full cycle deals tend to have a significant amount of credibility building, referrals, new investors that come in because somebody gets a pop and they get up 20% to 40%, in Will’s case, IRR, yep, they’re going to refer people that they know every single time.

We’ve taken several deals off the table. We’ve gone full cycle on nine of them. Every time, that was a significant win for our companies. So big, big time stuff there. Will, you’re learning how to fly a plane. Tell us, how’s it going?

Will Matheson: It’s incredibly nerve-wracking. I’m not great at it yet. I still am proud to say I’ve never crashed, but I’ve never tried to land. I’ve always put that on the instructor. And I will say it’s really weird when you’re only a thousand feet off the ground or maybe 200 feet, 100. It wasn’t high off the ground, but in a plane, it’s the only place where you’re not terrified of heights. That was one thing I thought was interesting. If I was standing on the top of a hundred-foot tower, I’d be terrified. But in an airplane, you’re like, “Oh, this isn’t too bad.”

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. I always thought– my own experience there, my analogy to that is when I first jumped out of a plane and parachuted for the first time and we were about 14,000 feet and I jumped out tandem. So, I had an instructor that was connected to me. And I thought you’d have that roller coaster feeling when you fell out of the plane and your stomach would drop out, like you’re going down the first hill of a massive roller coaster. That wasn’t the case at all, similar to kind of experience that you’re talking about and that I totally misjudged that because once you’re falling at the speed of gravity, it actually feels pretty cool and normal. And the roller coaster is going up and down and zipping and zagging and the speed changes and all that kind of stuff changes, that’s the thrill. It’s amazing, but similar, I would think, to flying a plane at a thousand feet and just kind of cruising along. Maybe it’s not as scary, it sounds pretty fun.

Will Matheson: I mean, you tell me, so how long does it take– if you’re jumping at 14,000 feet, how long does it take to hit the ground? I know you use the parachute, but I mean, how long are you in the air at that point?

Josh Cantwell: We were freefalling for almost a full minute. It was about 50 seconds until we got down, and then parachute pulled. And then it was much longer to glide down to the ground. That probably took a full 10 to 12, maybe 14 minutes once the parachute opens because you glide it down…

Will Matheson: And is that a situation where you get comfortable or like you’re a little bored? It’s like, oh, the ground’s coming up, but not very quickly. I’m just curious.

Josh Cantwell: No, it was cool. I mean, because the instructor is able to guide that parachute in different angles and directions, you kind of get a little of that feel like you’re on a wave or you’re on a small roller coaster and kind of cruising around. But once the parachute was open, it was cool for a minute, and then I just kind of wanted to get on the ground as fast as I could. The freefall, I was going pretty close and pretty fast and hard to the ground.

The one other mistake I made jumping out of a plane is I opened my mouth and tried to scream. And then, sh*t, of course, the wind, it goes down your throat so fast, you’re literally choking on air, like I could not catch my breath. So phenomenal, fun experience.

Well, listen, Will, it’s been great to share with you. Thanks a lot for coming on the show. The firm is called Matheson Capital. Our group can go visit you at MathCap.com. When they go visit your website, what are they going to find?

Will Matheson: So, they’ll see a little bit about us. You’ll see our portfolio, current deals, exited deals. But if you go to the Investor Forum, complete that. You’ll join our mailing list and we reach out to every investor to talk about what their goals are and how we can work together. Is this property a good fit? Maybe they’re looking for something over here. So, we take pride in reaching out to everyone who signs up on our platform.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, I love it. And I know a lot of our investors who listen to this, we’ve got over 400 active investors, guys that have invested a ton of money with me, and guys, you know that I know that you should diversify, operator diversification, location, geographic diversification, asset class diversification. So, hook up with Will, talk to him about his investment opportunities, and go from there. Will, thanks so much for carving out some time for us on Accelerated Investor.

Will Matheson: No, thank you for having me.

[CLOSING]

Josh Cantwell: Well, there you have it, guys. Listen, what a fun interview with Will, young guy, totally killing it, doing an amazing thing. And so, what’s your excuse? Like, serious question, kid is in his 20s, like he had no ownership experience, no track record, no equity, and in the last few years, got $100 million worth of deals. He’s acquired 12 buildings, started small, grew his company. So, what’s your excuse?

If you’re not achieving your goals, if you’re not doing what you set out to do, if you’re not achieving financial freedom, if you’re not buying, cash flowing, or flipping multifamily deals, why? Seriously, serious question, why? I’d love to hear. I’d love to know. If you want some help with that, you guys, you’re aware of the programs that we offer. We have our three-day virtual live events. You can go and get a ticket for a few hundred bucks at ForeverPassiveIncome.com. And of course, you can apply to be in our mastermind partnering and coaching program at JoshCantwellCoaching.com.

But you, my friend, have no excuse. There is no reason why, if Will can accomplish everything he’s accomplished in his middle 20s, that you cannot achieve what you want. I don’t care how old you are. I don’t care if you’re 65 years old and you think that you’re at the end. Look and see how much Will has accomplished in just the last five years. You have at least five years, don’t you? Well, there you go.

As always, rate, review, like, subscribe to the podcast. It would mean so much to me to have you as a subscriber and to share this all over the internet. Thanks so much for being here. And we’ll see you next time.