Josh Cantwell: So, hey, guys. Welcome back to Accelerated Investor. I’m your host, Josh Cantwell. Listen, if you’re not following me if you’re not connecting with me on social media, man, please do that. Go to Facebook and find me online, Josh Cantwell. Go to LinkedIn. Find me online, Josh Cantwell. Go to Instagram and connect with me. Go to our YouTube channel and connect with us because I do this really for you guys. I do this to find deals. I do this to network with investors and just really have a good time with it. Today, I have a brand new guest and a brand new topic that I really, really enjoyed. My guest today is a gentleman named Flint Jamison. Flint spent 20 years in aerospace as an engineer and a program manager and managed $120 million program modifying aircrafts for the military. Back in 2018, he decided to build a new financial future with cash-flowing multifamily real estate. So, he’s been at this for over five years. After buying his first duplex and getting a hard money loan and a construction loan and doing that, he realized that that was a lot of work and he didn’t want to buy himself another job. He thought, “Hey, if I got to do this 50 times, there was no way I was going to buy myself 50 more jobs.”

And so, he decided to get into syndicating multifamily and build-to-rent communities. So, in this episode of Accelerated Investor, you’re going to learn, number one, you’re going to learn about the three phases of doing a build-to-rent community, phase 1, phase 2, phase 3, and why each phase of that property is worth more money. You’re also going to learn about, number two, what does the yield on cost mean? Number three, you’re going to learn why the relationship with the builder is most important, a builder who can handle zoning, objections, laws, demand, and the style of the house that you’re going to build in a build-to-rent community. You’re going to learn about that. Also, you’re going to learn from Flint about, again, why there was no way he was buying himself 50 more jobs in the residential. And finally, you’re going to learn why Flint’s investors or limited partners have broken free from the Wall Street rollercoaster and found true financial peace of mind through multifamily investing, syndications, and build-to-rent communities. You’re going to love this interview on Accelerated Investor with the CEO of Vestus Capital. His name is Flint Jamison. Here we go.

[INTERVIEW]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey, Flint. Listen, thanks for carving out some time today to be on the show. I’m so excited to have you, man, talk real estate, talk about your pivot from being an engineer into commercial investments. Thanks for carving out a few minutes for us. How are you?

Flint Jamison: Yeah. Thanks, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Josh Cantwell: You bet. So, listen, with every guest that we have on, I always like to first talk about what they’re up to right now. Like, what are they excited about? What passion projects are they working on? So, as we introduce you to our audience, tell us a little bit about what gets you going. What are you passionate for in today’s market?

Flint Jamison: So, a couple of things. I quit my day job in January, so right now it’s a really good time. I’ve got a few deals that I’m working.

Josh Cantwell: Nothing today? Like, you’re not…

Flint Jamison: I am just, yeah, taking kids to the doctor this week. I mean, all sorts of stuff. The freedom is really great. But a couple of things I’m excited about. I’m raising on multiple deals. Right now, I’m super excited about build-to-rent. We got three properties going and then I’m actually raising on a 94-unit townhome community. All of this is 506(c), which is allowing me to talk about it obviously but, yeah, raising capital.

Josh Cantwell: Nice. I love it. Fantastic stuff. So, you mentioned build-to-rent. So, peel back the onion a little bit. What does that look like? How big is it? Tell us a little bit about that.

Flint Jamison: Yeah. So, we’ll go to the basics because I think this is still a relatively new topic for most people but think about it like multifamily across single-family homes. So, we build a community of single-family homes. We manage it as one large commercial property, so say 160 units in Foley, Alabama. It’s smaller starter homes like 1,400 to 1,800 square feet. It’s a nice middle ground where millennials who are looking to get out of apartment buildings, they’re growing families, but they can’t afford a house. Everybody knows housing prices are super high. So, this is the best compromise. We’re building these brand new houses, starter home size. They can get in. They can live in a home with their own four walls, a front yard, a backyard, amenities, property management, maintenance-free, you call the maintenance guy. So, it’s kind of this really wonderful middle ground that is causing so much demand. The big institutions want to buy these up but they aren’t building them so we’re here to build them.

Josh Cantwell: Is that the plan then, to build it, tenant it, fill it up, manage it, and then sell the whole community?

Flint Jamison: So, on this particular one, we’ll build it in three years, we’ll stabilize for one, and sell. But we’re also seeing unsolicited offers for much sooner than that. We could be 60% built and we’ll get offered to get bought out.

Josh Cantwell: Tell me about the economics of it. Like, what does it take to build one of these starter homes? What do you think you’re kind of be all in for? And then what do you think the exit price looks like?

Flint Jamison: Yeah. We should break this down on so many different metrics. The easiest one to think about is, let’s say it cost $30 million to build this 160-unit apartment complex, and we’re probably going to sell it north of 40. If you think we’re leveraged throughout the whole bid, we’re getting 20% IRR or higher. We’re up to 225 I’d like to say on the lower end because it’s under-promise, over-deliver but some of our internal underwriting is really exciting when we put in numbers that are realistic, which we don’t advertise to investors.

Josh Cantwell: Sure. Love it. I love the build to rent. We’re not doing any of it ourselves. We’ve done 19 syndications, but we’ve never done a build-to-rent community. I love the idea of it. What does the capital look like for that? I’m curious just for my own kind of selfish reasons. How does the stack look, the bank, the construction loan, the investment?

Flint Jamison: Yeah. So, it’s Arbor Construction Loans. It’s interesting because we normally get in, in multiple phases, right? You buy the land and you got to entitle it, as most people see that that’s the riskiest part, getting the entitlement because you could get voted down or it could take you three years to get approved. We’re bringing in investors in what we call phase 2. We’re past the entitlements, engineering’s approved, and we’re starting to cut dirt, as in horizontal. We’d say phase 2 is a horizontal or we’re cutting the dirt, putting roads, sidewalks, and utilities in. Phase 3 is going vertical, putting in the houses. So, in each one of these phases, we’ll get a new assessment on the property and then we’ll go get another loan. And at each phase, the property is worth more. If we have roads, sidewalks, and utilities in there, all of a sudden we’re valued much higher and we’ll go get another loan. And the investors, the earliest investors get in there and every phase, their equity is worth just that much more but it’s largely double the loans, construction loans.

Josh Cantwell: Got it. Yeah, love it. That’s fantastic stuff, especially with the housing shortage that we have, like the lack of supply. So, a lot of people that are going to rent, the people that don’t want to pay a 6%, 6.5%, 7% interest rate on a mortgage right now, maybe they’ll rent, have a nice full house, kids in good schools. And then whenever the time is right, they can go buy something. Although I don’t think prices are going down to purchase any time soon because of the supply and demand.

Flint Jamison: Yeah. Huge shortage.

Josh Cantwell: Huge shortage. So, love the strategy. Fantastic. So, how did you get into that? Tell me a little bit more, Flint, about is this something you fell into? Is it something you’re like, “I love that idea of this?”

Flint Jamison: Yeah. You know, they say network is your net worth. So, you’re probably going to ask this question a little further on but I’ll get there early. I initially started syndicating back in 2020, 2021. I failed on my first syndication with partners. That’s a whole another story. But out of that, I targeted my weakest point, which was capital raising. So, I went back coaching and then I became a capital raiser working with experienced operators. So, my friends and family who were investing with me, we’re getting in with experienced operators. I found myself serendipitously as a capital raiser from that point on because I could bring my friends and family a diverse portfolio with experienced operators all over the place. So, here I am. I’ve been networking with all sorts of people, all sorts of operators. One of my good friends started doing build-to-rent, and this is like a marriage between syndicators and a housing builder. So, we said, “Well, we have to build houses so you go find a very expensive, experienced housing builder and you create a partnership.” So, syndicators bring the capital, housing builder builds houses, and everyone, it’s a win-win. And I’ve just known these guys for a while. They said build to rent. I said, “No way. I want in.” So, I got in.

Josh Cantwell: Nice. I love it. From also a cost-to-build scenario that that community could be turned over and sold off.

Flint Jamison: Yeah.

Josh Cantwell: You can leave selling off that way.

Flint Jamison: Yeah. The exit strategies are really good. Like, if you look at apartment building, the only exit, there’s multiple exit strategies we have but you still have to sell it as one big property. Build to rent you have a bunch of single-family homes. You can parse them off as either I say the worst case scenario, sell them off just to individual buyers. I think a better solution is sell them off to other investors like somebody can come in to buy five of the units, but you still keep that property management in place and all amenities and everything. So, there’s multiple exit strategies beyond what you would normally see with an apartment building.

Josh Cantwell: How are the lenders with this? Like, very receptive? Are there certain lenders in the space that are very bullish on it?

Flint Jamison: Yeah. The lending is actually favored. Like, Arbor Loans, they love construction loans. If you pull back the curtain a little bit, Blackstone is wanting to invest in these properties because they see so much value in it. When they turn around and they will invest with Arbor, say, “Here’s $10 billion. Go lend construction loans to these build-to-rent communities.” So, they’re lending to Arbor to lend to us, to ultimately circle around and buy this property from us.

Josh Cantwell: Oh, so Blackstone then is like the possible takeout buyer for…

Flint Jamison: Yeah. Absolutely. These big institutions are takeout buyers. Yeah.

Josh Cantwell: No kidding. I did not know that.

Flint Jamison: Yeah.

Josh Cantwell: So, Blackstone’s giving Arbor some sort of line of credit or some sort of funding. Arbor has done some sort of spread. They lend the money out to you in three phases, right? You wrap up that build, or maybe you’re 60%, 70, 80% through it. Blackstone circles back around and says, “Great. We’ll buy the whole community and then we can obviously deploy the money. We can put our money in play, get a good return plus the depreciation.”

Flint Jamison: Yeah. Let me give you an idea of the amount of demand. I have a friend that did a 600-unit. They bought the land. Investors came in at the land purchase. They spent 18 months entitling it, and then they got two unsolicited offers. They didn’t even cut dirt and their investors doubled their money in 18 months because an investor came in and said, “That is worth so much money.” They wanted it even before it even got roads.

Josh Cantwell: Got it. Love it. And the guys that you knew that got into this, so how did they get into it? Is it the same thing? Did they kind of follow their network?

Flint Jamison: One of the guys has been around real estate for 20 years and done some development stuff, and he had relationships with builders and he ended up in the syndication while doing multifamily value ads. And he kept saying, “Hey, we should go do this development thing over here and build some houses. Build-to-rent’s a big thing.” And so, it took a little bit of motion a year or so, and it finally gained traction with the others and said, “All right. Let’s do this.”

Josh Cantwell: How about, Flint, your investors? Tell me a little bit about you syndicated for a while. Before that, you said you had a failed syndication, etcetera, but done some syndication and decided to get into this. How did your investors respond? What was their response to seeing this type of opportunity versus like a value-add B-class, C-class apartment complex?

Flint Jamison: Yeah. It is a bit of a sell. I think to be honest, the economy’s making it a challenge to raise capital, period, whether it’s a value-add apartment building or new development. We are seeing investors who they just want to see cash flow. Even though we’re seeing cash flow and cash flowing properties, in the first year is like 2% or 3%. It’s not much. In the development phase, you got to go in and say, “This is the long haul. You don’t have any cash flow for three years. We’ll likely cash flow soon.” Once again another benefit of build-to-rent, as soon as you have homes built, you can occupy them versus an apartment building. You had to be 100% complete, certificate of occupancy from the engineer. So, in this case, we have ten homes built. We’ll fill them and then we’ll continue to build the rest of 160 and it’s a wave. And so, there will be some cash flow but we just say, “No cash flow for three years but the yield on cost is super high. We get really great returns. It’s like buying the seed that you plant the apple tree and all of a sudden the apple tree is producing apples that you can sell for a dollar apiece but it’s just the seed cost you pennies.”

Josh Cantwell: Yeah.

Flint Jamison: It’s just a little bit of a mind shift.

Josh Cantwell: Let me ask you, again, selfish question.

Flint Jamison:  Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Cantwell: I started this podcast just to meet cool people. I didn’t care if I had an audience at all. Now, we have a big audience and they still know I’m super selfish. Hopefully, they get a lot out of the questions that I ask for my own reasons. So, I’ve done all these syndications myself. I’ve never done build-to-rent. Where would I start? Like, I know I can raise a lot of money. I know I can sponsor big loans, all that, but I don’t even know the first thing about, like you said, find the dirt, entitlement. Where would I even begin to evaluate a market?

Flint Jamison: To be honest, I think the smartest thing to do is build a relationship with the builder because I think they are the strongest key to the whole thing. Our builder has built within a four-hour radius of where he lives for so many years. He knows all of the local municipalities. He knows what it takes to get zoning approved. He knows what the rejections or objections would be. He knows all of the laws. And then on top of that, he’s been around the area so well. He knows what the demand is. I mean, we can do all our standard market research. What’s the market demand? The market growth? All that’s the same. But this builder knows how to take a piece of property and he knows the area so well and he knows how to convert it into houses. Yeah, I think that that is the first place to start because they are the key to make it successful.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, that’s great advice. That’s great advice. And I’ve got some relationships with some pretty substantial builders. So, I’m going to start there and talk to them. Like, as we continue to look at some of the challenges of today’s market, which is what I wanted to ask you about next, you’ve got to be a little bit more creative in finding deal flow or creating deal flow, whereas in a year or two ago is deal flow everywhere. Now, there’s still deal flow but a lot of it doesn’t pencil. So, you have to make some deal flow where it didn’t exist before. And obviously, new construction is one way to do that. Flint, when you look at this type of investment or you look at the economy as a whole, is there anything that concerns you? Is there anything that keeps you up late at night? Or what are you doing to de-risk your business that based on some of this recession stuff, that’s rates, unemployment? What are you doing to kind of compensate for that?

Flint Jamison: Yeah. To me, I view the recession, looking at history, recessions only last on average like nine months or something like that. I kind of wish they would have just called the recession last year just to get it over with because I think the way we get out of a recession is people just get tired of calling it a recession and they move on with their lives. And lo and behold, the economy comes back to life. We’ve kept ourselves in this funny stalemate for a while. We’re not quite in a recession and an increase is not quite right. Obviously, the interest rates have gone crazy. They’re not going to last forever. Real estate is a long game. Get in it and find a property that can withstand the long game. Like, this 94-unit townhome that we’re doing in Columbus. It’s a ten-year fixed debt at 5.6%. We have a decade to weather some storms and find a great exit strategy. I think that that’s a great plan. To your point, it’s hard to find some of these opportunities because the interest rates are high. We create, okay, let’s go just do new development, a really great yield on costs but to the investor side, people are struggling to commit. There’s the media is throwing the scaries out. People just want to sit on their cash. That’s a hard one to battle.

To me, it’s like the banks aren’t super healthy. I’d rather have my money in a tangible asset. If you play it right, you can invest in the right deal and secure your money for great returns over the long haul. This is a bump in the road. I mean, in two years from now, we’ll look back and be like, “Oh, yeah, that happened.” Kind of like COVID, right? I invested in the middle of COVID and I am glad I did. I am going to be super happy that I’m investing when I’m investing now because in 2 to 5 years from now, things are going to explode.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. And almost every podcast I’m doing lately, I want to make sure my audience is really educated on how do you get trapped in real estate by having to refinance or sell at the wrong time. And the reason for that is because people don’t secure long-term debt. That’s why we got in trouble in 2006, 2007, 2008 because of all the short-term adjustable-rate mortgages. Same thing in 2022 where a lot of multifamily investors use variable-rate bridge loans. They get caught. It’s because they can’t. They have to sell. They have to refi at the wrong time. As long as you secure long-term debt and long-term, I mean, at least five years but you’re really talking 7 to 10 years or longer. Five years, I would consider kind of mid-grade or mid-term financing, but five years at a minimum. And that’s probably the best thing we ever did over the last couple of years was get mid or long-term financing and whatever happens the next year or two really won’t matter. We can refinance if we can, sell if we want to, but we don’t have to do anything versus these other guys that are getting caught. So, I really, really love that.

When you look at limited partners today who are maybe pulling back a little bit but should still be investing or especially with inflation so high, they need to get a 6%, an 8%, a 10% return just to outpace inflation, what message like when you have a call with one of them, what are some of the bullet points maybe that you use or some of the talking points you use to try to get them off the fence? So, I’m asking you this question for two reasons. One is our audience who are operators that are having the same problem, giving them some advice about what you do. And secondly is if you are a limited partner, like you can’t be sitting on the sidelines, you can’t just keep your money in a money market. You’re going to get hammered the opposite way. You’re going to be losing 5% per year. So, are there any talking points or things that you say that you think are working?

Flint Jamison: No, because I think everybody has a different objection. So, part of the thing I struggle with is I’m an engineer, 20 years engineering experience. My avatar and my target market is engineers. They’re naturally skeptical and they’re naturally analysis paralysis. So, sometimes it could take three years to convert someone. And you just got to have the heart-to-heart. What is their pain point? Stock market volatility. Okay. Real estate over the last 100 years, it has ebbs and flows too but it has statistically shown it is far more stable. I like investing in the basic human need of shelter. You’re investing in a tangible asset that people have to have. I think that’s far more stable than whatever is driving the stock market because I haven’t figured that out yet. Or I don’t know that I ever will because I’ve shifted to real estate.

Josh Cantwell: I love it. Tell us a little bit more about your start. You obviously had a very long and successful career in aerospace as an engineer and a program manager. You manage a $120 million so big, big contracts with the military. Like you said, engineers tend to have very analysis-driven minds so analysis paralysis. So, making a move in 2018 like you did to pivot over into real estate and do your first duplex and do your first multifamily type of deals, naturally, as an engineer, I used to be a financial planner, and any time I would have a meeting with an engineer, I’m like, “Sh*t, this is going to take like 8 meetings to get this guy’s business.” 

Flint Jamison: Yeah, yeah.

Josh Cantwell: But with you, because I know how your mind works, your mindset works, it probably took you some time to convince yourself to even make the move and then move. And you have obviously the hiccups and challenges of being a new investor. Tell me about your mindset during that time and some of the early challenges.

Flint Jamison: Yeah. Well, the way I got started was listening to BiggerPockets and I bought a duplex. That was my first thing. I educated myself for almost a year and then I jumped in and I BRRRR’d a duplex. After that duplex, I mean, the BRRRR was hard. I spent a lot of money. I did a hard money loan to buy it cash because it was super distressed. And then when it was all said and done, how that was a ton of work. I basically bought myself a job. And then I did the calculations. What’s it going to take to become financially free? Because you always hear about somebody’s uncle owns a ton of real estate and they don’t have to do anything because they just get passive income. And that’s where I was inspired. That’s where I want to be. But when I did the calculation, I had to do that 50 more times. I needed 50 more doors. Like, there’s no way I’m going to buy 50 more jobs. Yeah, you can systemize it and hire more people but, honestly, this is going to take me forever. And then I just start syndications, which was advertised as the most efficient path to financial freedom. After digging in, I’m like, “Holy cow.” You get a team of people to help. You don’t have to be the expert in all things. You invest with other people’s money so you can really scale. You get these bigger complexes. Everything becomes very scalable and it just all of a sudden becomes more efficient. And it’s a wonderful place. The tax appreciations are great. So, I think as soon as I recognize the full picture, that’s when I said, “All right. I’m in.”

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, I love it. And what about that first deal? What about the first couple of deals that you were like, “Okay, syndication is the way to go?” What did you find that worked for you maybe being an engineer? Was underwriting easy for you? Was that fun with your…?

Flint Jamison: To be honest, I’m so tired of spreadsheets that, yeah, I can do the underwriting, but I just don’t want to do it. I say that but then on the flip side, like personal budget and stuff, I’m like, “Oh, let’s do a spreadsheet.” But kind of fell in the capital raising thing and I’m loving it. It’s weird because I’m not a sales guy. I’m not a marketer. I’m learning how to do this stuff but I think a lot of people relate to me because I don’t know how to be that car salesman. All I know how to do is educate, and I think a lot of people really appreciate that.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, no doubt. And I think that’s the big takeaway and we can probably wrap up with that. I think education, when you know something. I have a friend of mine, Flint, I’ve used this before on the podcast a few times over the years. I had a friend of mine, his name was Francis who told me one time, he said, “Listen, if you have something that you know that’s going to help other people and you know that they’re going to be better off with that product, that service, that program, whatever it is, then you have a moral obligation to sell it to them.”

Flint Jamison: Yes.

Josh Cantwell: Right? A moral obligation. That’s the word he used. And I was like, “Wow. That is powerful, man.” And then you realize you don’t really have to sell. It’s just education. The market had spent so much money educating the market about traditional investment, stocks, bonds, mutual funds because that’s where the commissions are and the fees are, right? There’s just not a lot of marketing dollars or education sitting behind syndication. So, then you, guys like you and I, guys like our audience, we have to take the bull by the horns and we have to educate the market. And as soon as the person, whether it’s a one-on-one call, a webinar, a live event, whatever, as soon as they learn about this, it’s like there’s not many people that are like, “Yeah, that’s a dumb idea.” Like, nobody says that. It’s like they’re really interested or mildly interested or interested in learning more. Maybe the timing’s not right, but nobody ever says it’s a dumb idea. So, really, our job as syndicators or capital raisers becomes how many people can we educate?

It only comes down to really it’s a numbers game of how many people can we talk to? How many people can we educate? They may not invest today but they’re going to invest in the future. And you know what? I don’t need to buy a property every day but I need to buy properties in the future, too. So, if those investors come around in the future, great. Like, I’m planting those seeds for the future. That’s really my big takeaway when it comes to raising money.

Flint Jamison: Yeah. I actually have a quote on my whiteboard here. Raising money isn’t about me. I’m providing an amazing opportunity for investors.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. And now you have a moral obligation to sell it to them. Awesome stuff. Listen, our audience can go to VestusCapital.com. There you can see Flint’s backstory, his portfolio. You can join his investor club. You can log on to his investor portal, learn about their multifamily investments, their build-to-rent strategies, and everything else. Check out VestusCapital.com. Flint, any other parting words or any place else that they should connect with you?

Flint Jamison: Yeah, I’m super active on LinkedIn, so if you want to engage and just see my educational stuff, yeah, /flintjamison.

Josh Cantwell: Love it. Flint, thanks for joining us on Accelerated Investor. Thanks for being here.

Flint Jamison: Thanks, Josh.

[CLOSING]

Josh Cantwell: Well, there you have it, guys. Listen, man, I really enjoyed that conversation with Flint, talking about the three phases of the build-to-rent community. Phase 1, buying the land and getting the entitlements; phase 2, cutting the dirt, putting in the roads, the sidewalks; and then phase 3, building the houses. I love that idea because I know that build-to-rent communities have very low maintenance. After you build it, it’s got very, very low maintenance. So, I’m super excited to learn more about that. Flint and I actually talked after we were done recording about possibly joint venturing on three of his deals. So, I’m looking forward to that. And listen, guys, as Flint mentioned, as a lot of our guests mentioned, he was able to learn about build-to-rent through his mastermind, through his mentoring program that he joined, through his partnering program that he joined. If you’re not in one of those programs, you should absolutely think about joining our program. It’s called Forever Passive Income, the Maverick Mastermind. You can apply there at JoshCantwellCoaching.com. Also, if you want to learn more about multifamily syndication, raising money, doing commercial deals, but you want to just kind of start kind of dip your toe in the water, check it out without making a big commitment, there you can buy a ticket to one of our online virtual live events. It’s called Forever Passive Income Live. There, you can go to ForeverPassiveIncome.com and grab a ticket for our next event. It’s online. You can do it from home. You can listen in from your cell phone in your underwear. I’m sure you’ll enjoy doing that.

Listen, thanks so much for being here today. Don’t forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, and become a subscriber to Accelerated Investor wherever you get your podcasts, wherever you get your videos. All right. Sounds great. Hope you have a great rest of your day. We’ll talk to you soon.