Josh Cantwell: So, hey, guys, welcome back to Accelerated Real Estate Investor. Hey, it’s Josh. Thank you so much for joining me today. And I just want you to know how much I appreciate you listening and engaging with me and spending time with me on this show. I love it. I have a great time delivering it. I hope you get a ton out of it. Today, I have a special guest. Her name is Kim Dyer. Kim is one of the two founding partners of Keystone Capital Management Group. She started this back in March of 2016. She is in what’s known as an IAR, an investment advisor representative. Now, what’s interesting about this interview, which is totally different that I’ve never done an interview like this before in the history of the show. I’ve been doing this podcast now for over seven years. I’ve never talked about this topic on the show so pay close attention. Kim has an alternative to the 1031 exchange. As you and I both know, the Biden administration is very different than the Trump administration, and the Biden administration is talking about raising taxes, getting rid of the 1031 exchange, getting rid of all these “loopholes”, rules in the tax code that benefit the “wealthy”. Whatever your position is, I don’t care if you’re left, right, blue, red. It doesn’t matter. You need to listen to this interview with Kim Dyer because we’re going to talk about what she calls the 453 installment deferred sale. 

This is a way for you to sell your property, put the property into a trust, have the trust sell your property, and then defer, not eliminate but defer all of those capital gains tax for up to 20 or 30 years. And in that time gives you the opportunity to reinvest the proceeds, pay no tax on it right now, have inflation work in your favor because you lock in the taxes that you owe but don’t have to pay those taxes for 10, 15, 20 years. And in the meantime, take what would be the government’s money, invest those dollars, get a return on that money, and then have your profit actually pay the taxes for you. Okay. So, everybody’s talking about the 1031 exchange. What’s going to happen? Is that going to go away? Is there going to be some changes? Possibly. And if there is, we have the solution for you on this interview. You’re going to love this interview on Accelerated Real Estate Investor with Kim Dyer from Keystone Capital Management. Here we go. 

[INTERVIEW]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey, Kim, welcome, welcome, welcome. I’m so happy to have you on Accelerated Real Estate Investor. Thank you so much for joining us on the show today. 

Kim Dyer: Hey. It’s great to be here. 

Josh Cantwell: Fantastic stuff. So, Kim, listen, I know there’s a lot going on because we’re working with clients all the time. You’re in the financial markets every day. When I meet and talk with somebody new, always interested to just kind of figure out what they’re up to, what are they working on right now that they’re passionate for, that they’re excited about. So, what does your day look like? What does next week look like? What are you working on that kind of gets you going? 

Kim Dyer: Well, we’re really excited right now because the market in Arizona as well as elsewhere is just going crazy and it’s skyrocketing. So, we have some clients that are at that age when they’re saying, “I have four or five rental properties and maybe I’m going to take this. I’m going to sell when the market is high and take advantage of that.” So, we have half a dozen clients that are evaluating, selling, and then how are they going to sell it? How are they going to avoid the tax on it? So, it’s working through those issues of what’s the best way to defer tax, avoid paying all of it to the government and take advantage of the high market and get it in the financial markets. 

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. Fantastic stuff. So, I know a big part we talked about this kind of getting prepared for this interview. Most people talk about accumulating, accumulating, accumulating. I need to save, I need to invest, I need to buy my next building, need to finance the investment and whatever, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, crypto, cannabis, whatever they’re investing in. And they’re all about the accumulation phase. I know you and your firm really focus on the back end of that, which is the distribution phase. We’re living longer. We’re doing more. We’re living more active lives, longer lives. There’s obviously this whole baby boomer issue and people living longer in assisted living facilities. People are just living longer, healthier lives. And so, distribution is not something that I think about as a 44-year-old because I’m still in just the accumulation phase. So, tell me about some of your clients and tell me about some of their concerns in the distribution phase. What are some of the things you’re helping them plan for? 

Kim Dyer: Well, for one, an IRA or a 401(k) or a qualified plan is a great way to defer paying taxes but that is just part of the game, right? So, you’re taking advantage of that tool during your working years when you’re making your highest income but then when you get to retirement and whether that’s 65 or 75, people are definitely working longer. But when you’ve used that tool, now what? So, we like to say that if you have a large IRA or deferred plan, that it’s just not complete. So, now what are we going to do to maybe get it out of that plan or pay the taxes on it? Because it’s such an interesting, you know, you may have a million dollars sitting in a deferred plan or an IRA plan or a retirement plan but how much of that is the government? So, what we do a lot is we show a person’s financial picture and we show the portion that’s due to the government. And regularly we run schedules showing what their distribution requirements are for that, what kind of tax they’re going to pay the rest of their life. If they lived 30 years, what tax are they going to pay on that million dollars? Because it’s still going to grow and depending on how aggressively you grow the tax that’s due on that is incredible. So, we like to say, “Your plan is just not complete. It was good and we use the tools. Now, let’s complete your plan, and let’s look at what we might do to try and maybe do a Roth conversion, maybe get it converted to some tax-free things that are going to grow tax-free.” 

So, there are solutions out there and it’s a good time to evaluate and see if any of those things might work for you. And if you can get the federal government, their portion may be paid for at least decide when you’re going to pay it because the government can decide if they’re going to increase how much you have to pay on that retirement plan. They decide how much of it they’re going to own. So, people are interested in looking at that. 

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. That’s fantastic stuff. So, big hot button. Today’s market is this 1031 exchange, right? You know, from having one president that was obviously a real estate investor, a very big level, very pro-real estate, very pro-business. And not to say that the Biden administration is not pro-business. I don’t want to go into politics but they are talking about increasing taxes, capital gains on stocks, bonds, mutual funds, real estate. They are talking about possibly getting rid of the 1031 exchange and the step-up in basis. So, there are alternatives. We talked about this before we started recording but the 1031, a lot of people know about. So, why don’t you just kind of explain to people that maybe not know just the basics of the 1031 exchange? And if that were to go away, what does that mean? And then secondly, second part is what are some alternatives? Because I know you’re aware of and you’re implementing strategies in case the 1031 were to go away. So, I guess this is a three-part question. So, hopefully, we can keep this together. What is the 1031 exchange? Explain it in your words. Number two, the impact if it goes away. And number three, alternatives, if it does go away, what are some tools that already exist in the tax code that you’re working through to help people defer, delay, defer, defer, defer? The 1031 is defer, defer, defer, and die. It’s what people talk about, the defer, defer. It was opportunities. Some of the stuff I’ve never known about until we started talking off-camera. So, again, what is a 1031? What if it goes away? What are some alternatives? Help us answer those questions. Go ahead. 

Kim Dyer: Okay. Well, a 1031 is before you sign on the dot, before you make the sale, you commit that you’re going to sell that property and buy another like property. So, you have to meet certain deadlines of, yeah, you have to hire an intermediary. You have to meet deadlines thus the new sale has to be made within 45 days. So, you’re exchanging this property for another property. And in doing that, you get to defer that capital gains to the new property. And so, it’s been very advantageous that people like that. There’s a couple of things. The government is talking about eliminating it. And two, right now, a lot of the commercial real estate people are worried about because so much of the market is changing and it’s switching to online. It’s switching how we do business. The models look different. So, it’s a volatile time for commercial real estate. So, buying into the same type of property might be volatile. Maybe you won’t get your rent on the commercial side. I think there’s going to be enough business but it may take a while to come back. So, the 1031 if you have one, I think the government will grandfather it in but if they get rid of it, then you won’t be able to sell and exchange for another property and defer. So, I hope that is enough detail. 

I won’t get into all the specifics but there’s very definite deadlines that you have to meet. You have to have an intermediary that does the deal, and you have to have lifetime property. There are other alternatives that we could look at and it’s in the code section 453 and it’s been there for as long as the 1031 exchange has been there. So, it’s tested and it’s a good alternative. What happens when you do an installment sale, sometimes you carry the note for a buyer and they pay you over ten years and at the time you make the sale there’s a percentage that’s taxable and as you receive the payments on an installment sale, you pay the tax. So, you pay the tax depending on how you receive the payment. Sometimes people receive payments and then receive a big balloon in ten years but as you receive the money, you pay the taxable rate. And that’s looking at the proceeds less your basis and there’s a percentage calculated and every payment that you receive, you pay that percentage tax. The 453 allows you to go farther and we have a process where if you put that sale inside a trust, it will allow you to totally defer paying tax paying that capital gains. And what it does then is the trust makes the sale. So, it’s a real estate investment intermediary sale trust. So, that’s available. It is liquid but you don’t own it, so you do put it in there irrevocably then the trust makes the sale. 

The other thing this does, you can make the sale and if you are carrying the note, you don’t know if that person is going to run the business on the ground. You don’t know if the market, financial markets change. In this way, you can go ahead and make the full sale, get the full value of your property, and you don’t have to worry about collecting it or what might happen. So, you get all your money. It goes inside the trust and the trust then can pay you an income stream and then the trust you defer paying the capital gains for 20 years. The downside is you’re paying the capital gains rate at the time 20 years down the road. But what we’ve seen with capital gains rates, with the different administrations, they raise the capital gains rate. It impacts business and activity. So, they say, “Oh, we’ve got to change that,” so there’s new businesses coming into the market. So, then they lower the capital gains so people will invest. So, there’s an ebb and flow of the capital gains rates. So, the nice thing about this trust, you can decide when you’re going to pay the tax. So, if the capital gains in 10 years was reduced, you could say, “Oh, I’m going to take advantage of that and pay…” 

Josh Cantwell: It’s just the election on your tax forms? 

Kim Dyer: Well, it’s inside the trust and the trust is managed by you and there is an administrator of the trust. And you can shut down that trust and pay the tax any time you want. The maximum you can defer is 20 years. But during that 20 years, you receive an income stream of 5% or 6%. Just like you would receive rent on a 1031 exchange, you would receive an income and we would put the money inside, we would invest it in the financial markets. So, that money that let’s say you sold a $2 million piece of property, you would put the property in, the $2 million goes in the trust, we would generate an income stream that would come out monthly to you during that 20 years. At the end of the 20 years, you pay the capital gains rate at that time but you used the government’s money during that time frame. You’ve taken advantage of inflation instead of paying the large percent…

Josh Cantwell: Love it. So, under that scenario sell a $2 million building, and let’s say we bought it for a million, sell it for 2. Let’s say we’ve fully depreciated it. So, we’ve got a $2 million deemed that we would ultimately pay. We hope to 1031 exchange. It can’t do that. The Biden administration gets rid of 1031s. So, we transfer the property into a trust, sell the property, take the $2 million of cash. We elect this.

Kim Dyer: You put it inside a trust. There’s an administration. There’s an intermediary of sense like there is with a 1031. So, the administrator is handling the trust. 

Josh Cantwell: And the part of the code you said was 457. Is that right? 

Kim Dyer: 453.

Josh Cantwell: 453, that’s right. So, 453, take the dollars. They’re in the trust from the sale. Put the property in a trust. Sell the property. Dollars come into the trust. It’s irrevocable. The administrator invests those dollars in the financial market so the trust has its own identification number, investing in the markets, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, annuities, whatever, and generates an income stream, let’s say 6%, 7%. It’s in the trust and it’s creating income. We could take money out of the trust through a distribution but we’ve deferred now $2 million. Let’s say it would have been $400,000 of tax or $500,000 of tax and that’s delayed, delayed, delayed, about 20 years to the side. I hit a year. Let’s say there’s a new administration which is going to be a new administration, whether Trump comes back or who knows what happens 10, 15 years from now, and all of a sudden it’s reduced capital gains because with these capital gains going up and down dozens of times in the last hundred years. We find a year where the capital gains tax laws are favorable and we decide to pay the tax. Maybe at that point, it’s 15%. It’s $300,000. You pay the tax under 2 million. You still got the 2 million in the account because you’re just living on the interest. You don’t have the $300,000. You could pay the tax to very low tax rate but you’ve got to invest the $300,000 of the government’s “money” for the last 15 years, earning interest on that and living on it. 

And so, what you’re saying, Kim, is if the 1031 goes away, there’s still life. There are still alternatives? 457. Love it. Now, this is not something that I’m familiar with. How come I haven’t heard about this before? 

Kim Dyer: I don’t know. It’s because it’s been in the tax code all this time. It’s been in there as long as the installment sale has been in there, which is I think since 1950. I can’t remember the exact year but it’s been there a long time and it’s been tested. So, this is just adding a twist to it that using this irrevocable trust scenario to defer. 

Josh Cantwell: Got it. So, assuming we do this, right, so we’ve accumulated 3,500 units of apartments. It’s a $300 million portfolio. Fast forward 25 years from now and I want to sell the whole thing. Who are the people that I would need to have on my financial team to help me kind of execute and just think this through? Who are some of the players that need to be sitting at the table with me or with some of our other audience that might help us navigate some of these decisions? Who are some people that you collaborate with? 

Kim Dyer: Well, we collaborate with a company that has this real estate installment sale trust already set up and know how to do it. And they’re a company called Dunham Trust Administration and they’re out of Las Vegas, which is a great place to be because there’s no state income tax. And that was intentionally planned and they’ve been through it. And so, I think having a company that can be the administration for a trust that you set up and knows how to manage it is good. I also think having worked with an attorney that’s actually done some of these and we have a list of attorneys that we can work with and talk through how this might occur. And then we think having a great financial advisor to help you run some of those scenarios and make sure that the money that you’re putting in the markets is invested well. So, we think that’s a great team to have a good trust administration, to have a good financial tax attorney, and to have a good financial advisor on your team. 

Josh Cantwell: Love it. Love it. That’s great advice. Thank you for that. I know you’re not giving financial advice. Let’s just make that little disclosure because I used to be a financial planner. So, we know Kim and the Keystone team are not giving financial advice on this podcast. Everything they do is custom to their clients. So, this is just informational only. So, we get that off, get the attorneys off our backs. Kim, so how did you guys get into this? Like how did you guys get going? What were some of the original challenges to just building your financial planning practice, accumulating clients, and then also these types of niches with 1031s and helping people more on the distribution side, the management, and distribution? When I was a financial advisor, I was working with a little bit younger clients. I was a little bit younger. So, we were more in the accumulation phase. I had almost no clients, maybe a few who were really in the distribution side. So, what were some of the growth pains that you guys experienced? What were some of the exciting times that you went through in being an entrepreneur and building this practice? 

Kim Dyer: Well, I think trying to find solutions for people, actually seeing somebody go through a 1031 exchange, buying another 10 or exchanging it for a commercial property, and they were counting on the income from that exchange to live on and the property couldn’t be rented. So, having gone through some of those ebbs and flows, it’s painful to see someone that has done a 1031 wanted to have the 5% or 6% income come off of that in rental income and they couldn’t get the property rented, the new property through all those down times that it’s in the real estate market. And they were rich on paper but didn’t have any income to live by. And having gone through some of that really makes you look for other alternatives. I also think we because of where we’re located in Phoenix, there are lots of people, lots of our clients in the distribution phase that have multiple rentals. So, they were looking for a solution. How long am I going to have to keep the rentals? They’re getting tired of doing all of the work that a rental requires. So, with this intermediary sale, they could actually set up one trust and go through multiple sales. So, if it works for somebody that might have five rentals, you put the rentals inside, there’s five different sales that you have to go through inside the trust but that works as well. So, I think it came from the types of clients that we were working with. 

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. It’s great. The Sunbelt, jealous, recording from Cleveland, Ohio, which is a fantastic area but it’s not Phoenix. So, help me understand one quick logistical question about this trust. If we’re thinking about the distribution side of our life and we’re wanting things done ourselves, we have to set the trust up first, right, while we’re living, while we’re operating and then move the properties into the trust in anticipation of the sale, right? 

Kim Dyer: It has to be done before the contract is signed. 

Josh Cantwell: Before the contract is signed. Okay. So, you know how real estate is. It’s not like an instant just sell it like a stock and you liquidate today. Real estate is much more methodical when we’re thinking, “Okay. We’re going to improve the property. We’re going to get the top income we can get. Then we’re going to list it and get rid of it for sale, hire a commercial broker, a residential broker to sell it.” So, we’ve got some time is my point to set up the trust, deed the property in the trust, and then have the trust ultimately sell the real estate to qualify for the 453 installment type sale. 

Kim Dyer: Correct. 

Josh Cantwell: Got it. Okay. I’m getting it. Thank you for this. I love learning new things. This is great. 

Kim Dyer: Very cool. I think there’s one other thing. There is another option as well in that 453. Some people want to buy real estate. Again, they don’t want to sell and be in the financial market. They want to go right back in. 

Josh Cantwell: Sure. 

Kim Dyer: So, there is actually what they call a monetized installment sale, and it’s the ability to defer and buy into other real estate. So, there are some other alternatives. And this is a 30-year deferral of those capital gains and buying into other real estate. So, it wouldn’t have the income stream coming out. You’d buy into the property and then defer. So, that might be a solution as well. So, that’s why having a good tax accountant and somebody that really knows these tools or I say accountant but I mean tax attorney that really knows these tools, it’s worthwhile. We want to really listen to what your goals are and then customize what you really need. 

Josh Cantwell: Fantastic stuff, Kim. So, after working with lots of clients that do this and seeing different administrations come and go, and the very big difference between the Trump administration, the Biden administration, I don’t think there’s a more polarizing discussion on the differences between the two. Doesn’t matter which side of the aisle you’re on. I think we can all agree that they’re very different. But what advice and again, I’m not asking for financial advice, just kind of your personal thoughts on things that your clients should be thinking through, advice that you would give them, or advice you’d give our audience just to think about as they go through their journey here and accumulating real estate, then distributing the real estate, accumulating wealth, distributing wealth. What are some things that you’ve seen your clients do, you do, your firm do that have gone well? What are some advice you would give them, some things to look out for? 

Kim Dyer: I think sometimes getting second opinions is helpful in interviewing more than one financial advisor, one tax attorney. I’ve had tax attorneys say that this monetized installment sale can’t be done, that the IRS says it’s not possible. And so, some of your listeners might say, “Oh, that can’t be done.” I’ve also sat and listened and listened to another tax attorney, and he’s actually done it and he’s doing five or six a year and he’s been doing that for a number of years. He’s actually sat before the IRS and he knows how to do it. There are some requirements that you have to meet to qualify but I don’t think you should be afraid to do some of that. So, get second opinions, look at some of the research yourself. I think listening, taking emotion out of the transactions is another important thing. We had one client during the pandemic when he had just invested. He was well-diversified and the markets went down in March, that 30% drop, and the client, they could not handle that drop even though they were well-diversified. We talked about that it’s going to be okay. Just stay the course. They got out and a week later, the markets took off and had one of the best years ever. So, I think not making emotional decisions is important. 

Josh Cantwell: Absolutely. Great stuff. So, Kim, let’s wrap up with our final group of questions. These are more really probably more personal for you instead of business. Just a few questions around kind of your personal preferences and mentorship and kind of advice and things like that. So, question number one is we all like to think we need places to think and decompress. What’s your favorite place or way for you to decompress and think about your life and business and being a great leader and entrepreneur? What’s your favorite way and place to decompress and think? 

Kim Dyer: I love getting out on the golf course with my husband. There’s no phone out there. I really try hard not to take a phone with me and just enjoy that outdoors and good friends when you’re golfing so I love that.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. Isn’t it funny how some of our best ideas come when we’re just in our backyard with our friends and family, when we’re having a good time and it’s like, “Oh my God. There’s a great idea that just kind of popped into my head.” Fantastic. Kim, question number two, which is your favorite book or piece of advice that you’ve ever been given? 

Kim Dyer: Oh, I love hearing stories about when you sell a business, and that’s part of why I’m in I think the business that I’m in and Scott Snider and there’s an exit interviewing book. It’s kind of a boring book but I love hearing the details of how you can really exit from your business. I just feel passionately about it. I actually went through a sale of a business myself before I moved to Arizona and I made some mistakes. You know, I did some things that I’d almost be embarrassed to tell you that I lost some of my leverage. You know, when you do business, you have your entity in one business and you have your property in another. And I was selling my interest in the entity that we were doing business together. And I signed away my leverage of the building before I got fully paid for the non-building entity if that makes sense. So, you have your operations and then you have your building in your lease, which is there’s much more, what I want, leverage. You can make sure you’re going to get paid. You’re not going to release that building until you get paid on the other entity. So, there are some things that if you just knew, you could save yourself some hurt or trying to deal with it. So, I think hearing people’s stories about businesses, what they’ve done and how they’ve done it well or haven’t done it well. 

Josh Cantwell: Got it. Is there a book specifically that you…? 

Kim Dyer: There is.

Josh Cantwell: What’s that called? 

Kim Dyer: Scott Snider and it’s an exit interviewing or The Exit Institute. Oh, walking behind the… Oh, I should go grab it. 

Josh Cantwell: We’ll find it. Scott Snider. We’ll find it. No problem. We’ll put it in the show notes. So, Kim, last question is who do you think has been the biggest mentor in your life and been behind the scenes pushing you or leader that you follow or mentor that’s had the biggest impact on your life and why? 

Kim Dyer: I think my Uncle Vern. That’s kind of a silly one but he was a man that got up every day, worked hard, did an honest day’s pay, and treated people like he would want to be treated. And he’s been my best mentor. I learned so much. I remember going with him in the milk truck in Northern Minnesota and watching as he went. You know, it was in the days they still were picking up milk cans and he would go and there were certain farmers that always needed help getting their cans ready to be hauled away. And just how he was always kind of that can-do spirit if they needed help. He got out and helped the farmer get the milk cans done. Just that work ethic, I think it’s just been so ingrained in me that I love him for giving me that. 

Josh Cantwell: Oh, that’s fantastic. What a great gift to pass down. I got a very much similar type of gift for my father, watching him get up and just put his pants on in his suit or whatever he was doing his uniform and just get after it and work long and hard and then spend lots of time with us his kids and grandkids, people that worked really hard, and just put in the time is a great gift. I hope my kids are getting that from me. So, Kim, listen, fantastic interview today. I really enjoyed it. If any of our audience wants to learn more about the 453 program, the deferred installments sale, 1031 exchanges, pinging your firm for financial advice and financial planning, where can they go to learn more about you? 

Kim Dyer: They can go to our website, which is KeystoneGroupAZ.com. They can email me at kim@keystonegroupaz.com. And we actually would like to offer, we’ve got a spreadsheet that you can put in the proceeds of your sale. We put in the basis and then actually run a spreadsheet and let you know if this intermediary installment sale trust might be a solution for you. So, we’d love to run that for you. We do that, no obligation, just to kind of give you a sense of what the income stream might be on that, show you what taxes you would pay, and we customize whatever state you’re living in and we look at the capital gains for that state. We’d love to run that illustration for you. Just to give you an idea, even if it’s not today. It might be down the road. So, if you would email us, that would be great. You could also call at 623-299-9710. 

Josh Cantwell: Fantastic. Listen, Kim, this is a great interview. I want to thank you personally because anytime I learn a strategy that can save me hundreds of thousands or potentially millions of dollars and I’ve never heard of it before, my gosh, what an impact you’re going to have on me and my business over the next 10 or 20 or 30 years. I just want to personally tell you how grateful I am that you carved out time to be on the show. Thank you so much for that. Guys, check out her website again, KeystoneGroupAZ.com. And again, alternatives to the 1031 exchange. It’s on everybody’s mind. You know that this is possibly coming. The 1031 exchange is a great tool. Defer, defer, defer, and die, and step-up in basis. If that gets taken away, here’s our amazing alternative and Kim and her group at Keystone can help you out with that. Kim, thanks so much today for being a guest on the show. Thank you so much. 

Kim Dyer: Thanks for having me, Josh. 

[CLOSING]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey, guys. Listen, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Kim. She was a great guest. Just reminded me of a lot of the other people that I know from the financial services world that are out to help. Of course, they make money. Of course, they make commissions. Of course, they have clients. Of course. But Kim to me just seems like such like an angel sitting on your shoulder as a financial advisor and this whole idea of this 453 installment deferment sale and using a trust to do that, fantastic idea. So, make sure you reach out to Kim’s group. It’s in the show notes. Make sure you reach out to them if they can help you sell a piece of real estate, pay less tax, reinvest, and have a bigger, more fulfilling financial life. I hope you enjoyed the interview. If you did, leave us a rating, leave us a review. Subscribe to the channel so you never miss another episode. Tell us how we’re doing. We appreciate all the nearly 200 ratings that we have, over nearly 140 reviews. I would love to double that this year. I’d love to get to 400 ratings. The 300 reviews. If you could help us do that, it would be fantastic. Also, don’t forget to hit the subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts or your videos, YouTube, iTunes, wherever it’s at, hit the subscribe button. Guys, listen, I’m always just honored, privileged, grateful to come in your ears, come into your brain, share ideas. I hope you enjoyed this interview and we’ll see you next time. Take care.

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