Josh Cantwell: So, hey, welcome back to Accelerated Investor. Hey, I’m Josh, and today, I’ve got a special treat for you. I’m actually going to bring on my capital markets broker, his name is Chris Litzler with Marcus & Millichap, and we’re going to talk today about what’s going on in the market, the lending market, the capital markets, specifically for multifamily real estate, but also talk a little bit about office, retail, industrial, hotels, self-storage, and mobile home parks.

Chris is a Senior Director of Originations at Marcus & Millichap Capital Corporation. He basically arranges debt and also advises on equity. Chris has spent four years at Pinnacle Financial, one of the largest independently owned mortgage banking companies in the Midwest. During Chris’s first six years in mortgage banking, he arranged over a billion dollars in financing across the country, primarily focused on the five major asset classes, including multifamily, retail, office, industrial, and hotels. He has also done things like luxury condominiums, mixed-use, self-storage, mobile home parks, and other types of assets.

Chris was recognized in 2019 as the Cleveland Office Breakout Agent and the Marcus and Millichap Top First-Year Achiever in Financing with a total 2019 production ranked in the top 10 in all of Marcus & Millichap Capital Corporation nationally. Chris is a good friend of mine. He has arranged financing for, I believe, 15 out of my 17 syndications that I’ve done. He’s also in the process of arranging the financing for a 296-unit that we are about to buy. That’s over a $15 million loan that Chris is originating.

One of the things we’re going to talk about in particular, that I think you really need to pay attention to, is this, is the higher costs that we’re expecting with all of this inflation, higher cost of insurance, higher cost of construction, higher taxes being reassessed, higher cost of wages and payroll, but also being offset by higher rents, and also, some things that you can do to protect yourself in an inflationary market. We also have a great conversation around the yield curve and the expected 10-year forward-looking SOFR rate on what we think the capital markets are going to look like over the next two to ten years. You’re going to love this interview on Accelerated Investor with me and Chris Litzler. Here we go.

[INTERVIEW]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey, Chris, listen, thanks so much for joining me on Accelerated Investor, my friend. Thanks so much for jumping on.

Chris Litzler: Man, always good to be with you. Thanks for having me. Appreciate your friendship, our business relationship, so happy to be here, man.

Josh Cantwell: Absolutely. Guys, Chris and I have done, I think we’re working on our 18^th syndication. I think you funded 16 of the 18. So, we’ve got a lot of business that we’ve done together over the years. And Chris, what I wanted to do was give our audience some insight into just how much the market’s changed in the last six months. We had a mastermind meeting. You gave a great talk back in October to our Forever Passive Income members. We talked about the 10-year Treasury, we talked about interest rates rising, cap rates going up, COVID.

And now, six months later, everything seems to be different. So, let’s just talk for a second, Chris, what are some high-level points and comments about what’s going on in the market right now? What are you seeing as far as movement? Why do you think it’s important for people to track? Let’s talk about today right now, what are some things that you’re tracking? What are some things that you’re seeing?

Chris Litzler: Sure. So, I think the best kind of place to start is let’s benchmark where fixed-rate loans were six months ago and kind of where they are today. Because at some point, you kind of use a 10-year fixed rate deal, it’s kind of a benchmark for where interest rates are. So, if I look at my screen here and I pull up the six-month, 10-year Treasury in September last year, 153, 10-year Treasury. And it kind of has been hanging out in that 150 to 175 range for quite some time. Only until about 45 days ago, 30 days ago did we see an increase, a material increase, and then over the last two weeks, there’s been a huge pop.

So, six months ago, we probably were doing 10-year fixed rate deals, 200 spread, probably in that three and a half, maybe a little bit below that range, three and a quarter to three and a half, and that was probably persisting for a few months back, so maybe up until three months ago, still in that mid 3% range. Today, if I was going to like a 10-year fixed rate deal, all things the same, four and a half.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah.

Chris Litzler: So, a full 1% increase in comparable deals, right?

Josh Cantwell: Wow.

Chris Litzler: So, think about that impact on cash flow. Permanent loans are sized based on debt service coverage. So, if your interest rate blows out a full point, imagine the impact on your proceeds. So, it’s a very large impact. We can get into the math another time, but there’s a pretty big impact on proceeds there. So, what happens typically or what we normally see is there’s a relationship with cap rates and interest rates. So, if interest rates go up 1%, historically, cap rates have gone out in a corresponding manner, usually one for one. So, we haven’t seen that take place yet, they lag. So, who knows what the interest rate market will do the next week, two months, six months, but I think that’s a good gauge. Call it 350 to 450 in terms of 10-year fixed rate money.

Josh Cantwell: Got it. And I know everybody’s talking about the worst-case scenario, 1970s money, things like that. I tend to believe that the Federal Reserve actually wants inflation because we haven’t had any really for 15 years. They want some inflation in order to cover and debase the dollar to cover some of the unfunded liabilities that we have. So, they want that to happen. But long term, the stock market, the residential market, which are so much larger than the commercial market, they would have significant negative impacts to the stock market and the resi market if those interest rates continue to climb, climb, climb, climb, climb. And so, how much are you paying attention to the resi market? How much does that impact what’s happening in the commercial space because the resi market is so much bigger?

Chris Litzler: Yes. So, the difference between the residential space in our space is cash flow. So, in multifamily and commercial, there’s income versus homes where it’s just the consumer’s income. So, we price our loans sort of the same. There’s a general trend between its long-term interest rates go up and the residential market goes up, so do ours. I’m not too focused on it, though. What I do kind of pay attention to, though, is foreclosures. Pre-foreclosure gives you a little bit of a sense of where things are going, but I do understand that the 30-year fixed residential market has blown out quite a bit of late as well. So, we’re all kind of in that wait and see, see what happens type mode.

Josh Cantwell: How much do you think that with 10-year Treasury jumping up from, like you said, 1.5 to 2.4-ish in the last couple of months is really baking in future Fed increases, future risk that’s already being baked into the market now? You hear that like was already baked in, it was already baked in. And when that quarter-point bump hit with the Federal Reserve last week, the comment was, so that was already baked into the market. So, let’s look at it and say that’s done. How much of an additional increase is kind of getting baked in now, I guess? Nobody has a crystal ball, but just your thoughts on how much sooner essentially is the 10-year Treasury going up and corresponding interest rates going up before the Federal Reserve makes a move because when the Federal Reserve makes a move, it’s almost like what we already knew that was coming? So, what are your thoughts on that?

Chris Litzler: That’s a relatively new thing because they’ve been trying to telegraph it so much because they don’t want us to move to market, so 25 bps a couple of weeks ago, last month. Now, we’re hearing 50 bps coming next month. City just came out today saying they expect multiple monthly 50-bp increases, so very large. I don’t really predict where that goes, but if you do look, and that’s really, they change, in fact, Fed funds rate, which is overnight borrowing. So, that basically goes in line with SOFR, the secured overnight financing rate. So, it’s fund rate. So, we see that ticked up in line with the Fed funds rate. The forward SOFR curve, so the consensus expectation of where SOFR will go is pretty scary. In three months, you’re expecting SOFR to go from 29 bps to 140 bps, like over a 100-basis point increase in the next 90 days. So, that’s very steep.

Having said that, the overnight borrowing rate generally does not have the same correlation with the -term long end of the curve. Where it does have an impact is on the short end, the one-month to the two-year is kind of where that overnight rate gets felt, and the two-year is really popped. So, I was looking at that yesterday, so the two-year this morning, and that’s important to pay attention to that spread, between the 10 and the two. Your listeners probably are familiar with that. Historically, there’s an inversion between the 10 and the two. That’s a signal that a recession is coming. So, that spread has gotten pretty tight. As of this morning, I’m looking at my yield curve, two years at 222 and the 10 years at 242, so that’s 20 bps of spread and that’s compressing quickly. So, that’s where you’re seeing this impact get kicked in. The forward SOFR curve is impacting the short end of the curve, and the two spiking out. The 10 is more of an indicator of long-term growth. So, now that you got all this persistent inflation, now you’re starting to see that come out from where we were six months ago or so when this hadn’t kicked in yet.

Josh Cantwell: Got it. Yes, when I think about our portfolio, especially some of the stuff we’ve bought in the last couple of years, 80 Maple, 52 Lake, 54 Niles, some of this type of stuff, so some of the things we’ve actually done for my listeners, I try to be as pretty transparent with them as I possibly can. So, 80 Maple, we locked in long-term Freddie Mac money at 4%. And so, we could hold that forever. And because Chris and I often talk about, look, the risk in the market is when you have a recapitalization event, right?

So, there are all these swings in the market, the volatility going up and down. And you only get caught and lose money if you’re forced to sell a property or refinance at the exact wrong time. And so, okay, I look at our portfolio, I look at 80 Maple, long-term Freddie Mac money, don’t have to sell that thing at a bad time. We can continue to cash flow. It’s cash flowing now. It’s pretty much at stabilization.

52 Lake and 54 Niles, smaller buildings, we did a very short-term two-year money bridge. We’re going to sell those. We’re selling those now because we think there’s still a lot of movement in the market, a lot of buyers out there that want to buy a 50-unit. And so, we’ll get those loans paid off before they mature because we’re always looking at this recap event. Then you got some swap money, a couple of loans that we have that have swapped. Well, actually, because interest rates are going up, that swap works in our favor. So, we have this long-term 25-year money on and we’ll have to look at, okay, well, what does that happen? How does that positively impact us if rates go off? Do we ever refi? Or do we just leave the loan in place? The only stuff that I ever really get concerned about is really the stuff that’s like a five-year bridge where five years from now, I think the interest rates will go up.

We’ll hit a point where the Fed’s going to say, inflation’s still rolling, but it’s under control. And because we have so much debt in our country, Chris, they’re going to start to tick the rates back down. So, on a five-year window, does it creep up, take back down simply because our economy can’t handle higher interest rates? We’ve got $30 trillion worth of debt. I know you don’t have a crystal ball, but how do you see it? You sit in a kind of special kind of bird’s eye seat making these kind of loans all day, every day. I wonder where this thing lands five years from now. Again, nobody has a crystal ball, but what are your thoughts on it?

Chris Litzler: So, I don’t want to predict that, but what I will tell you is what the forward curve sets. So, you can look at what the consensus expectation is for where this goes, and you’re exactly right. Actually, your suspicion was right. A little bit more movement up, but then the consensus takes it back down. So, the forward curve for the 10-year Treasury by the end of the year has it at 247, so that’s 7 bps, so not even set, that’s 5 bps higher than it is today. The consensus is kind of right in there. And then it kind of just comes back down a little bit and it has it hovering around its 250 for the next– I mean, the forward curve goes out at 10 years, so it’s got it in that range, goes all the way back up to 3%, but it’s not like it has it going to 550. So, that’s half the equation. The index is half the equation, where spreads go. It’s a function of risk, so you never know where that goes.

But your suspicion is right, and the consensus estimate is it doesn’t go to too much higher from here. And this has been a shock. Let me back up for your folks listening. If you had a crystal ball and you said, “Hey, money’s going to be 4.5% for the next three years,” I don’t think anybody gets spooked about that. They’d say, “Well, I know, we were doing deals at 4.5% two years ago or three years ago.” So, these deals get done. That doesn’t really spook the market. It’s just happened so quickly that it’s put a little bit of a shock. Everybody got used to 3.5% money very quickly. Right now, expectation, now you get these pricing expectations, conversation happening. It’s that bid-ask spread. Sellers are like six months ago, you told me that these guys could get 3.5% money, I can get this price. Well, now, they’ve asked for the bid side from the buyers is, I need a little bit lower price because I need to keep my cash on cash.

Josh Cantwell: Got it. It seems to me, Chris, correct me if I’m wrong, but going into COVID, like the economy was on such fire. There was a lot of vindication that the Fed was going to start to raise the overnight fund’s rate back then, two years ago. Then COVID hits, then everything drops to zero. And then it was like, okay, we’re starting to recover from COVID. Things are unlocking. And there was the consensus that rates would start to go up. And now, this war breaks out. So, there are these major events happening in the marketplace, COVID, war, etc., that nobody can plan for. Like you can’t forecast that stuff anywhere. There’s nowhere in the model that says pandemic, and Russia invades Ukraine.

Chris Litzler: Three years from now, China is going to invade Taiwan. Right, nobody– you don’t predict it. Exactly, I’m with you.

Josh Cantwell: So, really hard. So, you could say, okay, and that’s one of the reasons why this is where operators and guys that do deals and are looking for deals, you can’t pencil out and pro forma absolute best-case scenario. So, in a lot of our deals, Chris, in the Cleveland market could be trading in a 5 cap. We’re already penciling deals to trade at six, six and a quarter, six and a half, 6.1. We’ve done all of that over the last year because they’re not going to continue to trade this low.

However, there’s another part of the market we haven’t talked about, which is the demand for multifamily. So, even if interest rates go up, even if debt-service coverage ratios have to cover that higher cost of capital, there’s normally been that 200-bp, 150-bp spread between interest rates and cap rates, I imagine because there’s so much money in the marketplace and so much capital seeking some yield, and multifamily has been the darling asset of COVID, and industrial has obviously done really well, too, but that cap rate, interest rate spreads condensed down now and will stay condensed for a while because the demand is still there. There’s still tons of people seeking those types of properties. So, just what are your thoughts on that spread?

Chris Litzler: Yes. So, that just means people are willing to take less yield to buy into a safer asset class. That’s exactly right. Because there are not a lot of places to put money, some asset classes are people are a little bit afraid of, I’ll give you an example, hotel, office, big-box retail, half the asset classes, people are a little bit scared of, so the flight equality into the safer asset classes, storage, mobile home park, affordable housing, those sorts of things, folks are willing to take a little bit less yield because it’s got a better long-term outlook. So, that’s where that spread compression would come into play.

Now, the reasons being there’s also, real estate on its own has a lot of other benefits. The use of leverage, tax advantages. So, folks really like the asset class regardless of, if I’m making half a point better yield or not. There are alternative reasons to be in the space.

Josh Cantwell: Sure. You bet. And there’s also, guys, different structures. You have to remember when we go into a deal and we syndicate it, we bring in investors into a deal. There are also obviously other buyers, it could be a pension fund, could be a private equity fund, an investment bank, they’ve got dollars sitting in their house. They’d have to get deployed and they’re not looking to pay a 7% or an 8% or a 10% profit to their investors. So, they might be willing to pay more and get lower yield because they don’t have the obligation of a pref return like we might have. So, you have to factor in structure when you’re looking at deals, and a lot of our members, students, etc., are like, well, I’m getting priced out of the market. You have to remember who you’re competing with.

So, if you’re looking at those 200-unit, 500-unit assets and above, you’re going to have a lot more institutional dollars that require a lot less yield, especially up front. They’re playing the long game like Chris talked about, the additional benefits, appreciation, depreciation, not just what can I pay investors today? So, you have to compare what you’re doing, what your structure is versus what some of these other structures are that you’re competing with. It’s a big deal. You can’t win that game if somebody else only has to get a 3% or a 5% yield in the first year and you’re trying to pay an 8% or a 10% profit, this doesn’t work. So, that’s important.

Chris, I also wanted to ask you about when you look at long-term apartments, long term as their interest rates go up and come back down, as all this money is coming into this market for multifamily, like, what I’m getting at is there’s going to be a correlation here between the fact that there are no affordable housing and cap rates, and because rent rates keep going up, and rents, there’s no affordable housing, so people continue to rent and continue to pay more. And rising cap rates, do these wash each other out? Or not maybe 100%, but to some degree, because we’re getting rents right now on our stabilized properties that are $100, $150 above what we pro forma’d two years from now.

So, the fact that the rent rates are going up because there’s no affordable housing. Residential houses are more expensive than ever. There’s not enough supply, so there’s nowhere for people to live. Those are going up. The rents are going up, but cap rates are going up at the same time. How much are you and your investors that you’re banking are playing that game between outperforming possible pro formas, outperforming the rents because rents are skyrocketing in a lot of big cities, and then cap rates going up at the same time.

Chris Litzler: So, they kind of balance each other out in terms of value. So, higher rent growth but a little bit higher cap rate sort of offset each other. The bigger fundamental issue, though, is costs of construction are going up. What we’re seeing is really no path to them going back down. So, it’s very difficult with today’s costs to build affordable housing, more affordable homes. The only things that can get built are Class A stuff to make the math make any sense.

So, if there’s really no more inventory coming online of affordable housing, but there is demand, especially if interest rates go up, folks can’t afford as much house. So, you see you create more of a longer renter life cycle. So, if there’s a lot of supply or there’s a lot of demand, and there’s no new supply because it doesn’t make economic sense to build it, that increases rents. So, if that’s one thing we can kind of predict based on supply and demand, you see rents going up, well, I can’t control cap rates, but I like my odds that as so long as I can operate my real estate, keep driving my rents, I can be in okay shape.

Josh Cantwell: Yep, love it. Chris, I know you’re busy, so we’re going to make this short and sweet. The last question is what are you when you consult with buyers like me? And I’ve always really appreciated that you’re not just banking us, just brokering for us, trying to source us financing, but really a partner in structuring the deal, a partner in even underwriting deals, reviewing deals, and trying to create the best win-win for us as a buyer, the seller, and of course, getting the best financing. What are some things that you would say if you were talking directly to me, and our audience will have the benefit of this discussion, what some advice that you would say, okay, Josh, these are some things that we have to be looking out for, every time we find a new deal, here are some things that you absolutely have to have in your underwriter, things you have to be considering when you buy your next property?

And again, we can talk high level here, not actually a deal because we got several deals in the pipeline that you’re actually baking for us right now, but talking high level, here are some things, Josh, you should be considering. Here’s something you should be looking at over the next– depends on your deal out over the next three, five, seven years that you maybe didn’t have to pay as much attention to six months ago. What are some of these risk factors that we have to consider?

Chris Litzler: Sure. So, when you’re trying to mitigate risk, that’s really, I would say, on the expense side. It’s kind of what we would plan for on the downside. So, what we are seeing is higher insurance right across the board, more natural disasters, more severe weather, more insurance companies taking losses. So, we are seeing insurance premiums going up. We used to underwrite 200, 225, 250-unit annual insurance expenses in our market up here. I wouldn’t be surprised to see that double in the next couple of years. Real estate taxes are something that you and I are very familiar with, but a lot of guys that aren’t as seasoned aren’t paying as much attention to real estate taxes.

Assuming that real estate taxes go up on your purchase is one thing, but assuming when you exit, the taxes don’t go up again, is a major mistake, so looking at that, the real estate taxes. Repairs and maintenance and payroll, those sorts of costs that are ongoing operating expenses with this level of inflation, with the wage increases that we’re seeing, got to be expecting your payroll line item to go up, your cost of supplies to go up. So, yeah, I would just be making sure that you’re underwriting a true healthy operating expense ratio if we’re mitigating risks. So, that’s on the underwriting side.

The biggest thing that guys need to focus on is you’ve got to match your debt going in with what your business plan is and what the equity is expecting. In today’s world where we don’t know what interest rates are going to do, cap rates are going to do, values, leverage all of those things, putting some longer duration money on this stuff would make a lot of sense. And then you and I have talked about this, and we’ve implemented this in the loans that we’re looking at right now is a little longer duration money than what most guys are doing, most guys, high leverage floaters, interest-only, three-year balloons, some things that have some risks, right? So, you might want to be thinking about that. But just because the business plan is shorter duration, or maybe we put longer money in, managing the equity expectations is important.

Hey, guys, I’d love to get you in and out of this thing in 18, 24 months. What if it’s five years? Instead of two, what if it’s five years and putting a plan in place where Plan B is still a very good alternative? And you’re matching the debt to kind of cover your downside is the other thing that you and I specifically are paying a lot of attention to.

Josh Cantwell: For sure. And in deals that we cancel that we think we can still hit a certain valuation and refi and return all of the investors’ equity, let’s say it’s three and a half, four, or five years from now, I’m having a lot more conversations with our equity investors to say, “Look, we need to have a backup plan here that if we can refi and only return 60% of your equity, here’s what this is going to look like. You leave 40% of your equity in. That still earns maybe a pref return. If the cost of capital is more, maybe the cash flow after refi is even a little bit less. But there’s the opportunity maybe two years thereafter, three years thereafter to add a supplemental loan. We wait for interest rates to come back down a little bit and then we sell.

So, we’re having a lot more conversations with these equity investors about Plan B because it’s easy to talk about only Plan A, Plan A, Plan A when the cost of money is cheap, cap rates are super low, and everybody’s just in the money. That’s what it was like over the last five years. Now, it’s very important, like Chris mentioned, talk about, okay, longer debt, longer-term duration, locking in money longer term, talk in your equity investors about Plan B, higher insurance, higher cost of construction, higher tax reassessments, just even payroll, Chris kind of put a bow on that just to add a real anecdote there as we’re talking to our property manager, and they’re saying, look, to find a really good maintenance guy two years ago, could find a guy all day for 15 to 18 bucks an hour. Now, those guys know that they can go work in a warehouse for Amazon in a covered, very well-lit, well– just easy environment.

Chris Litzler: Easy to clean, good temperature, yep.

Josh Cantwell: Good temperature, good benefits, blah blah blah. And they can go work indoors, they don’t have to go out in the harsh winters of Cleveland, and they can make 20 bucks an hour. So, now, we’ve got to pay 20, 21.50, 22 bucks for the same guy that two years ago, we could get for $17.50. So, you’re baking that into your cost. And the good thing is because the rents are going up, it’s offsetting some of these costs, but this is where I believe being a conservative underwriter and being really good at your niche. And I think this is really at the essence, the solution is being good at a niche.

And Chris will tell you, we’ve done a lot of deals with Chris all over the country, but lately, we’ve brought all of our new acquisitions closer to home because we could manage that risk and we can operate the real estate so much better being close to home, drive into the properties, being able to be on-site, secret shop your properties. So, if you want to take some risks off the table, do deals where you can be on-site and make quick moves and quick pivots instead of buying an asset that’s 2,000 miles away that you think that just the market economics are just going to make that thing keep growing, what if it doesn’t? If you’re closer to home, you could manage the risks a little bit better. So, I think that’s really important for us. All the things that Chris talked about, higher expenses, higher insurance, etc., how do you offset that? Well, right now, it’s being offset by being a really good operator and being closer to home, in my opinion. And secondly, higher rising rents are going to offset some of that stuff. So, that’s where we’re at, that’s what we’re doing.

Chris, listen, thanks for carving out some time today, my friend. Any kind of final parting shots, words of advice? I know you’ve got to head off to a trip you’re making or a meeting that you’ve got to get to.

Chris Litzler: Look, guys, as markets change, we tend to see guys want advice, right? That’s how we’ve made a living in this business is being advisors more so than just brokers. So, things change, things ebb and flow, and you and I are communicating regularly. I encourage your clients, your listeners to do the same, whether it’s me or their local guy in their market. Make sure that you’re talking to guys that are in the capital markets to adjust your business plans, the way you’re thinking about your existing portfolio, future acquisitions, all of these things are constantly changing, we always want to be a resource for our guys.

Josh Cantwell: Absolutely, Chris, I know you’re busy, you’ve got a lot of great clients and you’ve got a full roster of people that you already work with. But if some of our listeners wanted to reach out to you, what’s your website, your Facebook, your LinkedIn? How can they get in touch with you?

Chris Litzler: Yeah, I should send you a note, but email is always best. We’re very, very responsive. So, email, and we’ll set a call. Happy to help friends of Josh or friends of ours, so feel free to reach out.

Josh Cantwell: You bet. We’ll drop that in the show notes, guys, if you guys want to reach out to Chris. Chris, thanks for carving out some time, my friend. It’s always great to have my nugget back and forth with you and share this with our audience.

Chris Litzler: Alright, buddy, I’m actually off to the appraisal for the deal we’re in a contract on, so I’ll catch you later.

Josh Cantwell: Alright, sounds great. Well, take care.

[CLOSING]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey there. You have it, guys. Listen, I hope you enjoyed that interview with me and Chris. Chris and I have done a tremendous amount of deals together over $250 million worth of deal flow, financing close to 4,000 units of apartments. And he’s been an integral part of our team. So, I really appreciate him. You can obviously reach out to him. We’ll put his email and phone number in the show notes. And Chris has got a prolific roster of clients. And so, Chris is always looking to help out investors, but trust me, he’s busy with the ones he’s got. So, if you want to reach out to him, we’ll put the contact information and email in the show notes.

And guys, listen, you guys know we’re legit, you know we’re transparent. If you want to be part of the action, go visit JoshCantwellCoaching.com, and there you can apply to be part of our Forever Passive Income Mastermind. The mastermind has over 75 members now. We meet three times a year. We also meet twice a week on Zoom to talk about best practices, property management, capital improvements, cap raise, financing, debt, and everything in between. If you’re a seasoned investor, intermediate to advanced, I think you’re going to love being a part of that mastermind, go visit JoshCantwellCoaching.com. We’ll see you next time on Accelerated Investor. Take care.