[INTRODUCTION]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey there, welcome back. Hey, it’s Josh Cantwell, your host. And I’m really excited today to be with you and to be sharing with you. I’ve invited a new guest on to the show today. His name is Michael Roeder. He’s one of the founders of Granite Towers Equity Group. I had his partner, Dan, on the show several months back. And I’ve invited Mike on to the show.

And what I love about this interview is I love just kind of talking shop with guys that are operating in a really high level. Dan and Mike have done 25 fairly large multifamily acquisitions, thousands of units. They’re operating in six different markets, including New Mexico, Texas, Florida, Minnesota, Alabama, and places like that, Arkansas. And so, it’s really fun to just spend time with another guy that’s really making it happen with some major acquisitions and talk about things, talk about the market.

So, here’s what you’re going to learn on this show. Number one, you’re going to learn why Mike and Dan focus on B and C-class multifamily, specifically 100 to 250- unit projects. Number two, Mike and I talk about why we feel like it’s so important to be a financial educator and a financial teacher to your kids and your grandkids, and why the school system really fails children in learning about the financial markets and how to personally invest as young kids. Number three, we’re going to talk about strategies to de-risk your business. And there are actually five different things that we talk about, in particular, to de-risk your business. Then number four, we’re going to talk specifically about Mike’s latest book. His latest book is called 4 Steps to Successful Passive Investing. And Dan and Mike are going to walk us through the four specific steps to successful passive investing.

Number five, you’re going to learn why Mike says you should skip the small stuff and why you should pay more for better talent. And then, finally, number six, we’re going to talk about some of the specific traits or the lessons that Mike’s learned along the way and specifically why starting in your backyard makes a lot of sense. But very quickly, you need to move into growth markets after you’ve done your first couple of deals. So, you’re going to love this interview today on Accelerated Investor with my friend and very experienced multifamily investor, Michael Roeder, from Granite Towers Equity Group. Here we go.

[INTERVIEW]

Josh Cantwell: So, hey, Mike, listen, thanks so much for joining me today on Accelerated Investor. Thanks for carving out a few minutes. How are you?

Michael Roeder: Doing very well. I really appreciate you having me on today.

Josh Cantwell: Absolutely, man. So, listen, let’s talk real quick about the market, and as we kind of introduce you to our audience, I would love to hear about some of your passion projects and kind of what kind of gets you going. What are you passionate about in today’s market? Obviously, the market’s changed a lot and everybody’s kind of got some different answers. A year ago, when I would ask that, or two years ago, I’d ask the question, everybody was just acquiring, acquiring, acquiring, acquiring. And now, I find a lot of guys that are operators are really shoring up operations or being a little bit different about their underwriting, but everybody’s got passion projects. So, what gets you going, Mike?

Michael Roeder: Yeah, so multifamily is our gig. It has been for the last approximately eight years or so. And when I got into investing, I started out in a single-family space. I can share more about that in just a bit. But right now, passion projects solely multifamily B and C-class projects, typically in between that 100 to 250-unit space. But when you said a lot of operators are kind of shoring up operations and slowing down on acquisitions right now, we have one project in the works right now. Other than that, it’s been a fairly slow start to the year. And obviously, with everything that’s going on, interest rates rising, possible recession on the horizon, we just are taking a step back and making sure that we’re underwriting properly and making sure that we’re getting into great projects that we really, really, truly believe in.

Josh Cantwell: Got it. Love it, Mike. And how about outside of real estate? Is there anything that you like as we kind of get to know you a little bit better? What do you like to do when you’re not?

Michael Roeder: Definitely. So, family is big for us. My wife and two daughters, we have a seven-year-old and a 10-year-old. So, integrating them into the business, especially the 10-year-old, she’s absolutely loving it. The seven-year-old is starting to come around. We do a lot of traveling as well. And a lot of times, what we’ve been doing recently is focusing on business and pleasure while we travel. So, if we bring our kids with, we’ll do due diligence with them or we’ll bring them to shop an apartment complex, which has been an absolute blast.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. And Mike, why is that a focus for you? I mean, if you really think about younger age, the youth, and even the way we were raised, finance, like a personal finance investing was not really part of the curriculum, right? There’s nobody that’s really teaching finance and personal finance. So, as a father, as an investor, how do you look at that as you’re raising your kids? I ask that because I’m a dad, I got three kids. So, I’m just curious how other dads are looking at personal finance investing inside their family structure.

Michael Roeder: That’s a great question. When I look back to my youth, when I was in grade school and middle school and high school, I really didn’t get any guidance on financial literacy, business literacy, entrepreneurship. And I really enjoyed being an entrepreneur and building that business throughout the years and networking and whatnot. So, I think it’s very, very important that we teach our kids that.

And even if it’s not entrepreneurship, just how to handle their finances and how to invest. So, that’s extremely important to me. And I think that earlier on that you can involve them with those types of things, the more interest that they’re going to have. And you can really cater it to a younger crowd. There are specific ways that you can make it fun for them and interesting, so that way, they build that want and that desire to kind of jump into the business field or the investing field.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, I tell my audience all the time, and even my kids, practice equals confidence. And if you could start when they’re seven or ten, my kids are 14, 13, and 11, get them practicing even how to understand a note mortgage or an equity investment or how to underwrite a deal or how to divide NOI and the cap rates, and you could learn that. I also tell my audience all the time that real estate really is sixth-grade math. It’s really simple addition, subtraction, division, or multiplication, IRR equations can get a little more complicated, but outside of that, everything else is fairly straightforward, something that any sixth grader could understand and a sixth grader could do. So, I’m fortunate, though, that so many people don’t have a lot of education about personal finance, so it doesn’t get passed down. And so, it’s great to meet another dad taking an active role in that because it’s really, really needed in our world.

Mike, listen, about today’s market, before we jump into your new book, the 4 Steps to Successful Passive Investing, why don’t you just talk today about the market? Where do you think the markets go? We all think, we’ve talked about it a lot, we think we’re going to go into recession to be in Q3, Q4, Q1 of next year. We think the Federal Reserve is going to continue to raise rates. And then on the back side of the recession, the rates will probably start coming down maybe in the second half of 2024, 2025. That seems to be the consensus for the most part. So, first of all, do you agree with that? And if you do, how are you adjusting making plans? Or is that changing your investment philosophy at all?

Michael Roeder: Great question. So, I partially agree with the rate talk. I think rates will eventually come down. However, I don’t think any of us know exactly what inflation is going to do over the next year or two. And if it’s tough to tame down the inflation, I could see rates being a little bit higher for longer. So, what we’ve done is we’ve decided to go into fixed rate debt, secure loans where the interest rate is in between 5% to 5.5%, where we have a 5 to 10-year fixed runway, just to mitigate risk and really be able to navigate the possible rough waters ahead of us.

Another thing I like about that is, you’re taking all the interest rate risk off the table. So, that’s an uncontrollable item. If you have a bridge loan or a floating-rate loan, it’s really not in your control. It’s in the Fed’s control or in the economy’s control. Now, I do think if the economy breaks and they’re seeing some major, major pain, which we haven’t seen yet, in my opinion, yeah, they might lay off interest rates, but when is that going to happen? I mean, we’ve been waiting for kind of the blood to hit the streets for the last year and it hasn’t happened yet. So, will it happen in the next 12 months? Or is it going to take 12 to 24 months? Who knows?

We’ve also adjusted our rent growth projections over the next year or two, depending upon the submarket. Obviously, rent growth has cooled off a lot over the last couple of years. We saw anywhere between 10% to 20% rent growth. That’s not going to be consistent from here on out. So, we’re typically underwriting maybe 2% to 4% average over a five-year period just because when you look at historical numbers over the last 15, 20 years, that’s typically the range that most of these good submarkets are in. So, we’re doing that.

Cap rates went up over the last 12 months, so just making sure that we have a good solid reversion cap rate that we’re really comfortable with. Now, I do think that cap rates are going to come back down when the interest rates decrease. Also, there’s a lot of money sitting on the sidelines, both institutional investors and investors like myself. So, once that capital floods back into the market, you’re probably going to see the cap rates compress.

So, those are a few of the adjustments that we’ve made. We’ve also made an adjustment on the areas that we’re buying over the last couple of years. We’re buying in nicer areas where the median household income is typically about $55,000 on the one mile and off, whereas we used to not be afraid to buy in the $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 range. It’s getting tougher and tougher for those tenants to afford the rents because cost of living is going up, plus you’re seeing a little bit more delinquency and vacancy in those submarkets, in some markets. So, that’s another adjustment that we made.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. One of the things that we’ve seen a recent phenomenon is we look back at historical data on one of our buildings that’s more in that lower income, $35,000 to $40,000 within the one mile. And we just actually had a meeting this morning before we jumped on with you And property manager is like, look, historically, we’ve seen big lease-ups in late March and April because tax refund season has happened.

And so, we know, especially in the Cleveland market, nobody really moves around the holidays, kind of slows down in November, really doesn’t really pick up until around February 1st because of the holidays, but then, with this particular building in this particular submarket, she’s like, look, April 1 last year, we signed 14 leases just in April. So, she’s like, we should be expecting that to come up. So, we’re prepping for that. They’re doing some St. Patrick’s Day type of marketing, hey, we’ll match your tax refund up to $300, up to $500 above marketing because we know that that’s going to be coming. And so, we’re excited about that.

So, yeah, a lot of the discussion about really just de-risking your business, right? And de-risking comes down to eliminating the question marks. And you’ve talked about de-risking by adjusting rent growth projections, going to fixed-rate financing, cap rate reversion, and then working with bigger and better income. So, I love all of that.

Now, Mike, let’s pivot to taking those strategies we just talked about and how does that apply to passive investing and the steps to passive investing. You wrote this new book, 4 Steps to Successful Passive Investing. It’s available, guys, for all of our audience, on Mike’s website. It’s GraniteTowersEquityGroup.com, and then you can find, it’s /free-e-book. So, we’ll put that in in the show notes, but the book is available.

So, with everything you just described, now, let’s pivot a little bit and talk about passive investing, limited partners investing. What are some nuggets in the book that we should convey to those passive investors, limited partners and what they should be doing to successfully invest? So, let’s just start, I guess, with step one, Chapter 1. Like, what’s your favorite part of the book? What was your biggest message when you wanted to write the book?

Michael Roeder: And step one is the most important for myself and then my business partner. And I look back when we started investing in multifamily, we bought a couple of small projects, a 20-unit and an eight-unit. But alongside that, we are also passively investing with other partners. And we jumped into it really quickly. We were excited about multifamily, the potential that it had. So, we found other syndicators and we shoveled our money into those opportunities.

And looking back, those projects did well, but there are a couple of things that we missed out on that we should have done. So, number one, you got to get to know, like, and trust the general partners. Very, very important. I would say this is the most important thing that you can hone in on when you’re a passive investor.

So, a couple of things that you can do. You can ask about their track record. What kind of properties are they operating? How many units do they have? What markets are they in? How those properties had done as far as total returns if they went full cycle? You can ask for investor referrals.

I mean, any syndicator that’s doing multifamily projects or any other type of syndication, they should have multiple investors that have invested with them throughout the years and you should be able to contact those people and ask how their experience has been with these syndicators. And not only ask that, ask, what would you like to see done differently that these syndicators are doing now? That’s a really good way to phrase a question where it’s not making them think like they’re talking negatively about the group. But information is going to come up like, hey, I wish they would communicate a little bit better with us or I wish they’d give us accessibility to the financials.

If you can set up at least a 15 to 30-minute call with the syndicator and just get to know them face to face or on Zoom, that’s going to give you a really gut feel for that general partner as well. And then, if you’re in the market or if you’re flying into the market sometime in the future that these general partners are investing in, go and buy a couple of their properties and see how they look. Are the grounds really clean? Is there a ton of deferred maintenance? How is the staff? Go in and peek your head in if you can, if you can get the okay to do that. So, those are a couple of ways to really vet the partnership team.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah. Love it. So important because these deals, it’s not a one-year deal, right? It’s not a two-year deal. Certainly, we flip some buildings in a very short amount of time. A lot of them that we didn’t plan on selling that we ended up selling because the timing was right. Investors were super happy with that. But generally, it’s a three to seven-year marriage. And you got to be comfortable and nothing goes exactly as planned, sometimes better, sometimes not quite as good. And so, you want to know. Really, you go into the deal, like, how is this general partner going to operate, keep me up to speed, inform me, communicate with me? Because we know that nothing’s going to go exactly like the pro forma. And so, just communication through that process is huge.

And so, yeah, getting to know, like, and trust the general partners, that’s like page one of the book and different and specific questions to ask. What’s step number two? Or what’s the next thing that you think the big takeaway is from the book that our investors should know?

Michael Roeder: Yeah, step number two would be researching the market, the location of the asset, and where you’re investing is crucial to the performance. Again, going back to our experience, when we first started investing in multifamily, we chose the wrong market. We invested in our backyard, a small town in Central Minnesota. And if we would have invested in Dallas, Fort Worth or Nashville or in the Carolinas in a really good submarket, we would have made 10 to 15-fold what we made with those projects.

So, I think you need to know the market. A couple of things that you can look out for, how landlord-friendly is the city and the state. So, you don’t just want to take a look at the state, you want to look at the city that you’re investing in. Also, what’s the population growth look like? Does it have a business-friendly climate? Are businesses moving to the area? All, very, very important pieces of the puzzle.

Another thing that we focus on, too, is how big is the submarket. If you’re investing in a tertiary market, it might be really tough to find contractors to find a good solid property management company, to find a backup property management company if you have to fire that first one, to find landscapers. There are just so many pieces of the puzzle and you want to make sure that you’re investing in the area where it supports what you’re looking to do with the property. So, that would be step number two.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, research in the market is key. And you know what? Out of our hundreds of limited partners, almost none of them, I would say it’s a very small number, very small percentage, Mike, that actually have said, “Hey, where can I get the numbers about the market, the submarket? Can you pull me a CoStar report? Or what kind of data have you aggregated? What kind of different reports, Josh, are you using to pick markets and pick properties? And can I see those reports?

So, if you’re a limited partner doing some kind of passive investing, or obviously, if you’re a general partner, that’s something that you have to know. A lot of people do start in their backyard and a lot of backyards, especially tertiary markets, small markets, or markets that are going the wrong direction with population growth and job growth. The backyard is not always the best place to be. Sometimes, it’s the most comfortable place to be because you’re just– especially when you’re just getting going and maybe you have a starter deal, a 20-unit or something or a 50-unit that you do. But then to quickly move into a market that has growing financials, growing population, growing jobs in the path of progress is going to be really, really important. Awesome stuff, Mike. How about step number three?

Michael Roeder: Step number three would be analyze the property. And all of these steps, it doesn’t have to take a considerable amount of time. The first step, I would say, spend the most time on that one, but researching the market, analyzing the property. And then the step number four, you could spend 20 to 30 minutes on each of those steps, and that will allow you to give you a good baseline to make your decision off of.

But again, step three is analyze the properties. So, just make sure that you know how to look at the numbers. Take a look at the rent growth, take a look at the vacancy, look at their other income, look at the rents that they’re looking to push, too, and maybe we just jump on Apartments.com and take a look at the competitors. Are the competitors in line with what the subject property is trying to charge?

Again, within a 30-minute timeframe, you should be able to dig up a lot of information on that property. And if you don’t feel comfortable looking at the numbers, ask questions or go out and get yourself educated by watching some syndicators’ webinars or listening to some podcasts like this or reading some books. I think that is just crucial to be able to look at the numbers because when all is said and done, these spreadsheets are spreadsheets. The numbers can be modified very, very easily. So, you have to trust the people that are putting together the numbers, but you also have to know what you’re looking at as well.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, there are so many great reports out there. I was just looking up some of my decks. I’m going to have to bring it up on a different call or at a different time. So, I just don’t think I can bring it up quick enough here live on the show, but there are so many great reports out there from Marcus & Millichap to CoStar to Colliers. There’s a lot of great stuff out there. I mean, a lot of the big financial firms and accounting firms put out multifamily and real estate reports, and they don’t really take a whole lot of time to read.

And if you’re going to make a $100,000 investment or a million-dollar investment, or as a general partner, could be a $20 million investment, I mean, it’s a crime, it’s a sin not to read as much of that data as you can, and then to read it every year because things are going to change. I mean, who would have thought in 2021, you’d see 13% and 17% rent growth in certain markets because of COVID and some of that type of stuff? And then, obviously, that cooled off relatively quickly in a lot of markets. So, analyzing the property and really going with long-term projections.

Obviously, if you have a year where growth is amazing, fantastic, that’s an extra win. And just with basic inflation, rents should be going up. I mean, owning a property for 30 years really is the goal, own it long term, and almost never sell. So, you get into a property and you own it for a long time, you’re married to that property, you want to know, you want to analyze the property and know what you’re investing in. Fantastic stuff. So, Mike, how about step number four?

Michael Roeder: Step number four would be know the team. And a lot of people might think that that means know the general partners. What we’re talking about here is know the team that’s surrounding the general partners. So, who is doing the asset management? Who do they have hired for their CPA? Were the legal or the property management team critically important? Do they have experience with that property management team?

One of the most important pieces is the onsite personnel plus the property management team, so they’re regional. And if you don’t have synergy there and if you don’t have a great property management team, properties can slip very quickly. So, you just need to know who’s all involved on this transaction, how much experience do they have with them, and why is the general partnership really excited about the team that they put together for the deal.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, and I think that’s critical. If we’ve seen anything, even in the last year, it’s that property managers, even the best of the best, can run into challenges with labor. Mike, so they have to have a good recruiting and HR department. If you’re working with any property manager with some size, they’re going to have an HR company because there’s a fair amount of turnover with maintenance tax, there’s a fair amount of turnover with leasing agents.

I mean, Amazon, the threat of Amazon is real and that people that were maybe property manager making 30 bucks an hour but had to deal with tenant turnover, had to deal with a boss, had to deal with these kind of things, they can go work in a climate-controlled environment with benefits at Amazon for 25 or 30 bucks an hour and just punch the clock and it’s tough packages, right? So, that has become a serious threat to any industry because now, we have a labor shortage. And so, when we’ve seen property managers have problems, it’s not usually because the lead property manager is bad or the regional is bad. It’s usually because of their support, the maintenance tax, the leasing agents, the porters that have the lower income type of jobs, there’s a lot of turnover.

And when there’s a lot of turnover, those are the guys working in the dirt that are doing the stuff, cleaning up the ground, moving people in, cleaning up the trash, doing leasing, punch outs, final cleans. And if that can’t get done, you can’t move people in and out. So, that is a real thing with the labor shortage that we have. And so, surrounding the GP with a great team is critical, somewhere between medium value add or devalue add. Then obviously, the contractor, the construction company becomes critical. Now, what about their labor? That really is the problem. Supply chain is not really the problem anymore. The labor market is. And I think that’s a huge point that you bring up step number four.

Guys, real quick, just to go back to number three, I found a list here that I’ve created that I talk about during our virtual training events that we do, and I’m just going to rip through these real quick. So, Mike, maybe you have used some of these. So, CoStar does their Group Global Predictions Whitepaper. It comes out January every year.

Marcus & Millichap has a national US multifamily report. Marcus & Millichap does their multifamily research briefs. Reonomy does the State of CRE. And Outlook CBRE does a biannual cap rate survey. Colliers does their global investor outlook. Colliers does local market research. PricewaterhouseCoopers does emerging trends in real estate. So, there’s eight different reports. I’ll actually make sure that we put those in the show notes so our audience can go click on those and download those reports if they want. That goes into analyzing the market and analyzing the property that Mike talked about in step two and step number three.

Awesome stuff. Now, Mike, listen, obviously, you guys have done 25 acquisitions, thousands of units. If you look back at your journey from being a single-family investor and starting with that 20-unit, that eight-unit, the smaller properties, and where you’re at today, what would be your main takeaways? What would be the main pieces of advice, not just with real estate but with your entrepreneurial journey? What do you think are some lessons that you’ve learned or some traits that you have that you think people have to have to be successful?

Michael Roeder: That’s a great question. So, I’m going to go over a couple of things that I would have done differently and then I can talk about the traits as well. Looking back over the last, gosh, what has it been, 15 years or 14 years since I started investing in real estate, personally, I wish I would have skipped the small stuff. So, I started out in single family. I thought it was going to resolve, me looking to become financially free and my passive income issues. And what it did is it created a whole ‘nother job for me.

So, I was running an hour from my primary residence to my rental properties, trying to take care of all the maintenance, leasing the properties up, doing everything I could so that way I could cash flow every month. And the reason for that was, you couldn’t find a management company to manage the deals for less than a 10% cost on the income that you’re bringing in. It was just extremely hard to cash flow those deals. So, that was tough.

Then I moved into the small multifamily. We bought a 20-unit, bought an eight-unit. Those did well at first, but we didn’t have the economies of scale. We didn’t have a great property management company in place because most of the great property management companies didn’t want to manage unit sizes that small. And also, when we had to replace a roof or a boiler, I mean, that knocked out the cash flow for a considerable amount of time, whereas that’s not happening with our larger properties these days. So, I would’ve done that differently.

Also, looking back on our organization and in the multifamily arena, hiring A players, so spend a little bit more on the people that you’re bringing on your team, your team members, whether that’s in-house, if you’re hiring on an asset manager or a CFO or regardless, or if you’re hiring on an onsite manager or a leasing agent, pay a little bit more if you can because you’re going to attract better talent and you’re going to have better retention, you’re going to have better success at the property. So, that’s another thing. Looking back, if I would’ve known that right away and implemented that, we probably would have had even more success.

And then, treats, like you mentioned, I think in this industry, if you’re a general partner, you got to be self-motivated. You got to have grit. You got to be persistent. Things don’t happen easily or quickly. So, you have to keep your foot on the gas through the ups and the downs. And that’s just extremely important. We see a lot of people jump into this industry, and a lot of people will try hard for 6 to 12 months and maybe nothing happens and they drop out and you got to just stick with it for the long haul.

With passive investors, it’s a little bit different because you’re not sticking in all that time and effort. But again, do your homework upfront because if you don’t do your homework, it’s more likely that you’re going to get into some bad deals, you’re going to get burnt out and bummed out on the returns and you’re going to exit the industry when really you should have done your homework and you should have stuck with it, so.

Josh Cantwell: Yeah, great stuff. I’m actually a little excited about this upcoming what it called slowdown recession, what have you, because guys like you and I that have been around the block for a while, we saw that the ’08 crash, we saw the chaos of COVID. We’re seeing the slowdown here. I think it’s going to send the herd. And I think, you and I are going to be salivating. I don’t know about you, Mike, but right now, one of the things we’re focused on is focusing even more on investor relations, recruiting more capital, warming up a lot of money, keeping a lot of dry powder because there’s going to be some distress in the market.

And there’s also just going to be less offers, less buyers, deals that used to have 15 offers, competitive, a call for offer, a second call for offer, a third call for offer, and then they select you and then they still want you to go off on your– those days are pretty much gone. Not totally. Some submarkets are still very competitive, but that used to happen in tertiary weird markets, small markets where you had five and eight and ten buyers, whereas in the past it was like, who invests in multifamily in this little submarket? Now, there were 15 people doing it. And so, it’s going to thin the herd. It’s going to create real opportunity for guys that are very confident. And as I said at the beginning of the show, confidence comes with practice. And now, you and I have had a lot of practice of everything we talked about, from operations to acquisitions and those kind of things and real experience. And that’s what I’m looking forward to as we go forward.

So, I’m just going to wrap up the show by saying, look, guys, I’m going to put in the show notes, these eight different research reports that we use. I’ll make sure those are in there. But primarily, make sure you grab Mike’s book, GraniteTowersEquityGroup.com/free-e-book, check it out. Make sure you guys download your own version. Engage with Mike and his team, get to know them. If they’ve got investment opportunities, take a look. And so, Mike, listen, just want to thank you for carving out some time for us today on the show.

Michael Roeder: Thank you so much for having me on, Josh. It’s been a blast.

[CLOSING]

Josh Cantwell: Well, there you have it, guys. Listen, I love it when we have a topic such as 4 Steps to Successful Passive Investing and a book to kind of guide the conversation. I love that kind of format and interviewing Mike and talking about the book and some of the specific things that he learned. So, make sure you grab the book, GraniteTowersEquityGroup.com.

And then again, don’t forget, guys, listen, we’re going to be doing our live events, the Forever Passive Income Live every couple of months, and so, you can get your ticket for that at ForeverPassiveIncome.com. We have an event coming up really soon. We have promotions that are always going on for discounted ticket prices or to be able to upgrade to VIP for some sort of discount. So, make sure you visit ForeverPassiveIncome.com to get your ticket for that right now.

If you enjoyed the show today, as always, subscribe, like it, rate it, review it. It would mean so much to me and to my staff to hear your feedback. Thanks a lot. And we’ll be here. We’ll see you next time. Take care.

[END]